"Useful" gadget.

[Allen Drake]

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can extend this
list with some thought.

Credit card advantages:
- Ability to dispute charges and request chargebacks
- Double warranty period
- Usage establishes credit history
- Usually limited to $50 liability
- Cash or points rewards
- Consumer protection provided by law
- Not a direct link to your bank account!

All this sounds good if you engage in the credit game. I do not. As I
explained I do not have my debit card linked to my money market
accounts. No overdraft protection as I would never be able to create
and overdraft situation. I would never need to dispute charges if as I
get the receipt on the spot. I don't care about double warrantee. not
worth it just to plat the credit game. Neither do I need "points". The
way it was explained to me I have the same protection other then not
being able to re coop right way. I bought an item online from an
outfit in China. It was defective and it took a while to get a
reimbursement but I did. My bank told me these guys agree to our terms
or they don't get to do their business in this country. They contacted
the vender and they compiled.

There is NO DIRECT LINK to any bank account I have.

It's like spending your cash but the bank is your wallet. Very simple
if one can get used to the idea of not having a credit card. I know
how difficult that must be.

You can basically flip each of those around and they become
disadvantages for using a debit card. As Stan pointed out, some debit
cards give you some of the consumer protections required of credit
cards, but not all do. (My credit union ATM card is a debit card and
doesn't carry a big name logo like MC or Visa, so I'm doubtful that it
has any or many of the same protections and advantages of any credit
card.)

If you google "credit card vs debit card" you get a bunch of sites
that, distilled down, tell you that each has its pros and cons, but
the bottom line is that credit cards have far more advantages and far
fewer disadvantages than their debit card cousins.

<http://www.google.com/search?q=credit card vs debit card>

One interesting example: (but it comes from a credit card site)
<http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/10-places-not-to-use-debit-card-1271.php>

If you don't skim any of the other links, try this one for a fairly
comprehensive comparison of the two types of cards and their take on
which is safer or better in each situation. Credit cards clearly come
out ahead, as expected.

<http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison>

The more you read, the more you'll want to stop using a debit card.

The bottom line is most of what you read and hear comes from the
banks that want you to use their credit cards regularly and often.

I will now study carefully the links you provided but it is doubtful
that after living a lifestyle without a need from a credit card I will
stop using my debit card. BTW I never have a need for an ATM if I
never carry cash so no charges apply.

 

[Allen Drake]

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can extend this
list with some thought.

Credit card advantages:
- Ability to dispute charges and request chargebacks
- Double warranty period
- Usage establishes credit history
- Usually limited to $50 liability
- Cash or points rewards
- Consumer protection provided by law
- Not a direct link to your bank account!

You can basically flip each of those around and they become
disadvantages for using a debit card. As Stan pointed out, some debit
cards give you some of the consumer protections required of credit
cards, but not all do. (My credit union ATM card is a debit card and
doesn't carry a big name logo like MC or Visa, so I'm doubtful that it
has any or many of the same protections and advantages of any credit
card.)

If you google "credit card vs debit card" you get a bunch of sites
that, distilled down, tell you that each has its pros and cons, but
the bottom line is that credit cards have far more advantages and far
fewer disadvantages than their debit card cousins.

<http://www.google.com/search?q=credit card vs debit card>

One interesting example: (but it comes from a credit card site)
<http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/10-places-not-to-use-debit-card-1271.php>

If you don't skim any of the other links, try this one for a fairly
comprehensive comparison of the two types of cards and their take on
which is safer or better in each situation. Credit cards clearly come
out ahead, as expected.

<http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison>

The more you read, the more you'll want to stop using a debit card.

Ok, I read the info on your links. They overlook the idea of my
planning. My debit card is linked to a checking account that I keep a
limited amount of funds in. I allow no more then $500.00 per day even
if I want to make a purchase in a store. I do mostly online shopping.
If ordered a Nikon that cost about $2000. I had to contact the bank to
allow that money be taken from my account by the well known vender. I
bought a washer/dryer at Home Depot that cost well over $2000. I had
to call the bank from the store before that would allow that purchase
to go forward. I could lower the amount to whatever I wanted. It's
like carrying cash. I would never go out of the house with cash or a
check book. Checks are the weakest link as your routing number is on
every one.

For your every day credit hound the info on those sites are mostly
true. I am not one of the masses that owes thousand in credit card
bills.

 

[Rodney Pont]

In other words, I have no idea how entering other data could be
accomplished. Swiping a credit card probably requires client software
on the destination end[1]. Where would you accept a password?

[1] Brookstone says "And it works on virtually any website that accepts
credit card payments". To me, that seems to mean "any site that has
been willing to install the client software". They also say "Just plug
the USB cable into any available USB port" at various sorts of places.
This doesn't sound like it runs on software installed on the user's
computer.

All it needs to do is shove the number it's scanned into the field the
the cursor is in on the form, just like a keyboard. I presume it tells
the system that it's an input device.

In the days of PS/2 keyboards you would plug the scanner into the PS/2
keyboard port and then plug the keyboard into the PS/2 socket on the
scanner cable, I've got a bar code pen scanner that works in just this
way.

What you say is quite credible to me, and what I say is also (and J. P.
Gilliver seems to agree with me).

It does sound as if the marketing people are involved, 'don't confuse
the issue with facts'

If the scanner does encrypt the card number it will need some software
on the server to decrypt it for use but then it wouldn't work with the
number of sites they suggest it will. I suspect they are simply
assuming https will be used, as someone up thread suggested earlier.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Protections for credit-card users are a matter of Federal law.

That's interesting; there is some protection for credit card users in
the UK too, I think because of the credit aspect.

On the other hand, some - mostly online, I think - places will accept
debit or credit cards, but charge more (either a percentage or a flat
rate) for credit cards; they say they are just passing on what the
credit card companies charge them. (Presumably the companies that don't
either have a better agreement with the card companies, or just absorb
the extra to get the extra trade [or some combination of both].) Some -
only one I've encountered, so far, but I assume there are more - _only_
take debit cards (E.on, my gas [heating not petrol] supplier, when being
paid by other than direct debit.)
[]

But there's one problem you can't get around: if your debit card is
used fraudulently or a mistake is made, that money is gone from your
account until the dispute resolution procedure kicks in. In the
meantime, checks you may have written, or automatic payments you've
set up, may bounce because there's not enough money in your account.
That ripple effect is a lot less likely with credit cards, unless you
habitually max out your credit cards.

All very true. I pay off my card bill every month (_not_ automatically)
too.

 

[Stan Brown]

Credit card advantages:
- Usually limited to $50 liability

True with debit cards also. I didn't know this was a matter of law
(as opposed to the munificence of Visa and Mastercard), but your very
own reference says that it is:

<http://www.wisebread.com/credit-cards-vs-debit-cards-a-comprehensive-comparison>

That page rightly warns against repeating unverified information, but
then it turns around and makes a misleading contrast itself.

It says, of debit cards, "Consumers must try to resolve the dispute
with a merchant on their own before they contact their debit card
issuer."

In context, the page pretty clearly implies that credit cards are
easier, but that is not true. The US Fair Credit Billing Act says
that you must try to resolve the problem with the merchant before you
ask your CREDIT-card company for a chargeback. I don't deny the
anecdotes given in the page, but those were matters of the credit-
card companies doing something they were not legally obligated to do,
and I am sure similar anecdotes exist for debit cards.

Again, I personally won't have a debit card, for the reasons I gave
earlier. But in the interests of truth, we should not exaggerate the
differences.

And, as the age says, debit cards do have one major advantage: you
can't easily run up debts with them. For people who have trouble
managing their finances and resisting impulse purchases, debit cards
might be the better choice for this reason alone.

 

[Stan Brown]

I would never need to dispute charges if as I
get the receipt on the spot.

"What, never?"
"No, never!"
"What, /NEVER/?"
"Hardly ever."

Aside from the possibility of a bank mistake -- once in a blue moon a
transaction might get recorded twice, for instance -- what if you
have a problem with the merchandise and the merchant refuses to take
it back? Or what if an employee uses your numbers to give herself a
little extra Christmas present?

Sure, these are unlikely, but they can happen with debit cards just
as they can happen with credit cards.

 

[Stan Brown]

There is NO DIRECT LINK to any bank account I have.

If that's true, then you don't have a debit card.

Debit cards by definition are linked to some bank account, from which
the money is deducted at the time of purchase or as soon thereafter
as the purchase is processed.

 

[Stan Brown]

On the other hand, some - mostly online, I think - places will accept
debit or credit cards, but charge more (either a percentage or a flat
rate) for credit cards; they say they are just passing on what the
credit card companies charge them.

Apparently that's allowed in Europe; but in the US, both Visa and
Mastercard absolutely prohibit surcharges on purchases and minimum-
purchase requirements. A complaint to the merchant's bank almost
always produces quick action. Ten states also prohibit surcharges for
all credit cards, according to the Visa page below.

Mastercard:
http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchant/pdf/BM-Entire_Manual_public.pdf
(Sorry, I couldn't find a short HTML page on their site. Search the
PDF for surcharge and note the exception for Europe.)

Visa:
http://usa.visa.com/merchants/operations/checkoutfees.html
(I didn't check what Visa may have to say about surcharges in
Europe.)

 

[Nil]

Apparently that's allowed in Europe; but in the US, both Visa and
Mastercard absolutely prohibit surcharges on purchases and
minimum- purchase requirements. A complaint to the merchant's bank
almost always produces quick action. Ten states also prohibit
surcharges for all credit cards, according to the Visa page below.

Many gas stations around here have different prices for credit-vs-cash
purchases. I guess they get around the CC company rules by claiming the
cheaper cash purchase is a *discount* compared the credit purchase,
rather than the CC purchase incurring a surcharge compared to the cash.

 

[Bob Henson]

Please explain why not.


You learned this how?


Can you provide an example of your claim?

Scammed how? I have spoken to my bank representative who informed me
I have nothing to worry about. They were more than willing to back up
any purchase made illegally.

I have stated clearly what would happen with use of a debit card with
only fear and rumors to the contrary.

Shortly after a scamming "device" was found on the ATM at my local Tesco
store, they have closed all the card readers on the petrol pumps today,
only taking cards (of any kind) over the counter in the garage shop. I
haven't found out what happened yet, but I'm guessing they've had a scam
worked somewhere. I'll report back if I can find any more news as to what
it was, how it worked, and how to avoid it. I do feel it's worth being
careful all the time though. Our little town is obviously a current target,
and it's best to pay "over the counter" anyway, but this sort of thing is
on the increase.
--
Bob

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

Heaven is where the police are British, the mechanics German, the cooks are
French, the lovers Italian, and all is organized by the Swiss.
Hell is where the police are German, the mechanics are French, the cooks
are British, the lovers are Swiss, and it's all organized by the Italians!

 

[Char Jackson]

And, as the [p]age says, debit cards do have one major advantage: you
can't easily run up debts with them. For people who have trouble
managing their finances and resisting impulse purchases, debit cards
might be the better choice for this reason alone.

I agree. People who lack the self discipline to use credit wisely
should stick to debit cards and just learn to live with the
disadvantages that go along with that.

 

[Allen]

Many gas stations around here have different prices for credit-vs-cash
purchases. I guess they get around the CC company rules by claiming the
cheaper cash purchase is a *discount* compared the credit purchase,
rather than the CC purchase incurring a surcharge compared to the cash.

Not a card issue, but the state of Washington used to have a ridiculous
loophole in their laws. It seems that a gas station could post a great
big sign showing a very low price for gasoline. Major BUT: this price
could apply to only one pump, not to all of the ones at the location. My
son, who lives in Seattle, told me about this when his wife got stuck
for several extra dollars. This was before gasoline prices went crazy; I
trust that public pressure has brought about a change.
Allen

 

[Char Jackson]

Ok, I read the info on your links. They overlook the idea of my
planning. My debit card is linked to a checking account that I keep a
limited amount of funds in. I allow no more then $500.00 per day even
if I want to make a purchase in a store. I do mostly online shopping.
If ordered a Nikon that cost about $2000. I had to contact the bank to
allow that money be taken from my account by the well known vender. I
bought a washer/dryer at Home Depot that cost well over $2000. I had
to call the bank from the store before that would allow that purchase
to go forward. I could lower the amount to whatever I wanted. It's

You obviously have a system that works for you, but it's way too
inconvenient and unsafe for most people, I'd say. You're comfortable
putting $500/day at risk, but for me that adds up fast so I'll stick
with the protections and other benefits afforded by credit cards. I
like not having the exposure that you have.

like carrying cash. I would never go out of the house with cash or a
check book. Checks are the weakest link as your routing number is on
every one.

Bank routing numbers aren't a secret. Here you go, look up any bank's
routing number, or use a routing number to look up the bank.
<http://www.routingnumbers.org/>

Personally, I think a check's biggest weaknesses are that some people
put personal information on them, including home address, home phone
number, Social Security number, etc.

For your every day credit hound the info on those sites are mostly
true. I am not one of the masses that owes thousand in credit card
bills.

Using a credit card doesn't mean you need to carry a balance. Use a
little self discipline and don't charge more in a month than you're
able and willing to pay.

 

[Allen Drake]

"What, never?"
"No, never!"
"What, /NEVER/?"
"Hardly ever."

Aside from the possibility of a bank mistake -- once in a blue moon a
transaction might get recorded twice, for instance -- what if you
have a problem with the merchandise and the merchant refuses to take
it back? Or what if an employee uses your numbers to give herself a
little extra Christmas present?

Sure, these are unlikely, but they can happen with debit cards just
as they can happen with credit cards.

I don't think I can agree with that because I always enter the number
at the device. I would not do business with anyone without knowing the
return policy. I have seen double postings for the same transaction
but they have never been completed to a point where I have paid twice.

You are right about anything can happen. I have always used direct
deposit but had an employee remove about $900 from my account rather
then deposit that amount. He did it to every employee that week. I
came home to check the mail to find several returned check notices.
That was some time ago and the last time I ever used checks for
anything. When I got to the bank the next morning(Saturday) no one at
the bank could explain what had happened. It turns out that when you
allow your employer to deposit you also allow "adjustments". The guy
was double dealing but did make things right including paying the bank
fees.

 

[Allen Drake]

If that's true, then you don't have a debit card.

Debit cards by definition are linked to some bank account, from which
the money is deducted at the time of purchase or as soon thereafter
as the purchase is processed.

You are right. I was thinking about overdraft protection. It is tied
to an account that, like I stated, always keep limited funds for
purchases.

 

[Allen Drake]

You obviously have a system that works for you, but it's way too
inconvenient and unsafe for most people, I'd say. You're comfortable
putting $500/day at risk, but for me that adds up fast so I'll stick
with the protections and other benefits afforded by credit cards. I
like not having the exposure that you have.

I don't get your thinking. What risk? The card never leaves my hand.
I am the only one that knows the PIN number. My card is limited to
$500 per day but that does not mean I am "risking" that daily amount.
I check my balance several times each day online. Credit card users
probably don't check their activity weekly.

Bank routing numbers aren't a secret. Here you go, look up any bank's
routing number, or use a routing number to look up the bank.
<http://www.routingnumbers.org/>

My bank is a in a small town where they know me when they see me
even though I haven't been inside in who knows how long. They know I
don't even have checks to how would a routing number come into play?
Am I missing something?

Personally, I think a check's biggest weaknesses are that some people
put personal information on them, including home address, home phone
number, Social Security number, etc.

I totally agree. Checks are weak to begin with. Not to mention
carrying around that book of blanks waiting to go off.

Using a credit card doesn't mean you need to carry a balance. Use a
little self discipline and don't charge more in a month than you're
able and willing to pay.

Agreed once again. I have enough temptation where I sit right now as
long as I have that Amazon Prime account. That's the fun of being a
senior with little to worry about. I have already developed my habits
and are pretty much under control.

 

[Allen Drake]

Shortly after a scamming "device" was found on the ATM at my local Tesco
store, they have closed all the card readers on the petrol pumps today,
only taking cards (of any kind) over the counter in the garage shop. I
haven't found out what happened yet, but I'm guessing they've had a scam
worked somewhere. I'll report back if I can find any more news as to what
it was, how it worked, and how to avoid it. I do feel it's worth being
careful all the time though. Our little town is obviously a current target,
and it's best to pay "over the counter" anyway, but this sort of thing is
on the increase.

I think I mentioned I never use ATM machines as I never deal with
cash in any way. I can't remember the last time I had any on my
person. I don't buy lottery tickets and as far as I know they are the
only things you can't get with plastic.

I have heard about the fake ATM machines. I have never heard of any
at the counter of any store though.

 

[Char Jackson]

I don't get your thinking. What risk?

The risk is that you're using a debit card. By definition, a debit
card is tied directly to a bank account of some kind, and when you
make a transaction the money is pulled directly out of that account.
That doesn't happen with a credit card. See the difference?

I get it, you're old and set in your ways and you're comfortable with
the way you do things, (and that's fine!), but it's too risky for me.

When I'm given the choice of playing with someone else's money rather
than my money, (credit card versus debit card), you bet I'll take the
first choice every time.

The card never leaves my hand.
I am the only one that knows the PIN number. My card is limited to
$500 per day but that does not mean I am "risking" that daily amount.
I check my balance several times each day online. Credit card users
probably don't check their activity weekly.

They don't need to.

My bank is a in a small town where they know me when they see me
even though I haven't been inside in who knows how long. They know I
don't even have checks to how would a routing number come into play?
Am I missing something?

Yes, you're forgetting that you said, just a bit above, that checks
are weak because they have the bank's routing number printed on them.
That's obviously not what makes them weak.

<snipped stuff that we agree on>

 

[Allen Drake]

The risk is that you're using a debit card. By definition, a debit
card is tied directly to a bank account of some kind, and when you
make a transaction the money is pulled directly out of that account.
That doesn't happen with a credit card. See the difference?

I get it, you're old and set in your ways and you're comfortable with
the way you do things, (and that's fine!), but it's too risky for me.

When I'm given the choice of playing with someone else's money rather
than my money, (credit card versus debit card), you bet I'll take the
first choice every time.


They don't need to.

SIOW the fraud can go on for a long time. I like being able to see
things in near real time. My wife has her own account and debit card
and when she it out shopping I can go online with the bank as see how
much she spent and know before she gets home where she went and how
much money she dropped. I like being able to do that. If it were a
credit card I might not know until at least the end of the month.

I guess you can say I am set in my ways even though I don't agree to
being old and stubborn. I am as new and fresh with ideas as anyone and
will still try new stuff. (I don't listen to oldies or wear ear rings
either I simply don't feel the need to improve on what has worked
for me my whole life. I like the idea of buying a car or anything else
I want and pay cash. I guess it gives me a feeling of some success in
life.

 

[Char Jackson]

SIOW the fraud can go on for a long time.

Not at all, and I'm disappointed that you still don't understand what
I've been saying, what a few others have added, and what they said at
any of the links I provided. (You promised to read some of them, but I
think that didn't happen.)

With either type of card, you can check your account activity as often
as you'd like. With a debit card, fraud means money has disappeared
from your account. With a credit card, however, the same scenario
means money has NOT disappeared from your account. That's a huge and
important difference. You can pretend you don't care, but it doesn't
change anything.

When there's a significant risk of money actually disappearing from
your account, it behooves you to check the activity frequently. On the
flip side, however, you can still check as frequently as you like, but
the risk -to you- is nearly zero. That risk is borne by the credit
card company.

I like being able to see
things in near real time. My wife has her own account and debit card
and when she it out shopping I can go online with the bank as see how
much she spent and know before she gets home where she went and how
much money she dropped. I like being able to do that. If it were a
credit card I might not know until at least the end of the month.

I seriously doubt you'll be able to find a credit card that doesn't
offer online access, and with it comes the ability to see your account
activity, just like you do with your debit card. Please don't pretend
that your debit card is special in that regard. It's not.

I guess you can say I am set in my ways even though I don't agree to
being old and stubborn. I am as new and fresh with ideas as anyone and
will still try new stuff. (I don't listen to oldies or wear ear rings
either I simply don't feel the need to improve on what has worked
for me my whole life.

People who are old and stubborn rarely admit it. (When I get there, I
don't plan to admit it either!)

I like the idea of buying a car or anything else I want and pay cash.
I guess it gives me a feeling of some success in life.

Sure, except that you don't deal with cash, so that's going to be
hard. Instead, if you meant plunking down your debit card, then
everything I've said in this thread applies and you'd be much better
off plunking down a credit card.