OT.... but I need help

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]

And if you don't like quartz crystals, they do make pretty
small atomic clocks.

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-05/smallest-atomic-clock-e
ver-now-sale

Paul

I hadn't realised the technology had come on so! Mind you, at a tenth of
a watt, that one's not going to run for long on an AA cell or two - and
I don't have $1500 to spare either ... (-: [Still impressive, though.]

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Fokke Nauta

One battery, containing 200 cells ... though single cells do tend to
be referred to as "batteries" these days. A car battery, or a PP3 or
PP9, is a true battery; AA, AAA, C, D, etc. are cells.

On old vacuum radio gear, there were two sets of batteries.[/QUOTE]

No, two batteries (-:. [That was the point I was making - "battery"
strictly means, or used to, "a set of cells".]

There were large "cylinders" to be used for filaments.

Yes, the filaments - or heaters as they tend to be called in UK -
generally ran on 6.3V (three lead-acid cells in series), though some
valves had 2V or even 1.5V heaters. In UK (allegedly - I'm not old
enough to remember this!), people without mains electricity had an
"accumulator" - presumably such a 6V battery - which they took to a
local shop to get charged. (Apparently often a local cycle shop.)

And "cubes" to power B+ voltage. You might need two
of these "cubes" to get enough B+ for mobile operation.

[]
I can _just_ - this would have been in the 1970s, in a rural town in
north England - remember seeing such batteries on sale. About the shape
(and size, and IIRR weight!) of a house brick, with a three prong
connector in the middle. (I have a vague memory that it might have been
90V, but it could have been two hundred and something - or even two
different voltages, given the three prong connector.) [By the way, I
think the term "B+ voltage" is US; I'm not sure what term was used in
UK, maybe HT.]

filaments would likely be in parallel. Whereas some
radios powered from the wall, the filaments were in
series.

Indeed. If in parallel, they could be different current ratings but had
to be the same voltage (e. g. for battery/cell powered sets); if in
series, they needed to be the same current rating but could be different
voltages (provided they all added up to the supply voltage - sometimes
with a big green series resistor to drop some of it and/or limit the on
surge!).
[]

This is just a vague recollection of some stuff my father
brought home when I was quite young. All the batteries
in this case, were flat, so there was no chance to
verify how many batteries were needed to run it. I

Well, unless you wanted to keep them as a museum exhibit, you could find
out by ripping the flat batteries apart to see how many cells they
contained (which I expect would have been ordinary 1.5 volt cells,
though of unusual shapes). I'd have thought they'd have the voltage
printed on them, though.

could have done some serious damage as an experimenter,
if those B+ batteries were working.

Paul

(-:

A fascinating diversion, this, for something like the Windows 7
newsgroup - I hope the rest don't mind! They might also enjoy
http://www.bvwtm.org.uk/tour/.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Well, people like you and me notice it, so they aren't really getting
away with it

By "get away with it", I mean they aren't punished (fined) by whatever
agency keeps an eye on advertising. (In the UK, it's the ASA -
advertising standards authority - who are worthless; their main sanction
seems to be to tell the advertiser that the ad. must not appear in that
form again, which delights the advertisers: they just say "sorry
teacher, won't do it again", and go on to write similarly misleading
copy for a different product. Such as a recent one I saw for a portable
TV described as "high resolution", which had a vertical pixel count of
less than 500 pixels - even stated in the same ad.!; see if you can spot
their excuse for getting away with that one.)

[Yes, I know about "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware), but where
technical matters are concerned at the very least, I do think the less
knowledgeable should be protected.]

 

[Ed Cryer]

Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase

Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes
(valves).

I've been looking for a use for that moon phase display.
I thought it might come in useful if I ever become a Moslem or a Jew,
when it would indicate approaching Ramadan or Passover. But I had a
near-death experience some years back, and no religious awakening at all
in my narrow little life.
Maybe now, however, when the skies have been so cloud-covered for months
that it's nice to know what would be visible without them.


Ed

 

[DanS]

Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase

Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes
(valves).

It's funny....I've been "into" electronics since I was a little kid, and
actively working in an electronics based field, and up until a year or two
ago, never heard the word "valve" used as a reference to a vacuum tube.

 

[John Williamson]

It's funny....I've been "into" electronics since I was a little kid, and
actively working in an electronics based field, and up until a year or two
ago, never heard the word "valve" used as a reference to a vacuum tube.

You must live outside the UK, probably in America, then.

To us here in the UK, a "tube" normally refers to a CRT as used in a TV set.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

DanS wrote: []

It's funny....I've been "into" electronics since I was a little kid,
and actively working in an electronics based field, and up until a
year or two ago, never heard the word "valve" used as a reference to
a vacuum tube.

You must live outside the UK, probably in America, then.

To us here in the UK, a "tube" normally refers to a CRT as used in a TV set.

Indeed. Here (UK), the things with heaters (filaments in US) are valves,
in US they're tubes (pronounced toobs usually, as opposed to tyoobs
which would be the UK pronunciation). Even TV would normally be referred
to as "the TV" (or "the telly") or "the box" - "on the tube" is more a
US phrase. (Also, when I was growing up, which would have been mid to
late sixties when I first came to be aware of this sort of thing, I'd
say something with valves in it - usually mains [line, US] powered - was
a "wireless", and something with transistors - usually battery powered -
was a "radio".)

The differences between our languages bring much enjoyment to me (as
well as occasional frustration)! Can't think of anything
computer-specific, other than perhaps remembering as a child chanting "a
million million is a billion, a million billion is a trillion"; we
adopted the American billion somewhere around 1980.

 

[Ken Blake]

Indeed. Here (UK), the things with heaters (filaments in US) are valves,
in US they're tubes (pronounced toobs usually, as opposed to tyoobs
which would be the UK pronunciation).

Just curious. Is "tyoobs" universally used in the UK? I would have
expected that in some places, it would be"tyoobs," but in other places
"toobs" would be much more common.

Just like in the US, where a word like "car" would have big
differences in pronunciation depending on what part of the country
you're in.

 

[Fokke Nauta]

Unfortunately a language problem. Though I could have known better ...

On old vacuum radio gear, there were two sets of batteries.

No, two batteries (-:. [That was the point I was making - "battery"
strictly means, or used to, "a set of cells".]

There were large "cylinders" to be used for filaments.

Yes, the filaments - or heaters as they tend to be called in UK -
generally ran on 6.3V (three lead-acid cells in series), though some
valves had 2V or even 1.5V heaters. In UK (allegedly - I'm not old
enough to remember this!), people without mains electricity had an
"accumulator" - presumably such a 6V battery - which they took to a
local shop to get charged. (Apparently often a local cycle shop.)

And "cubes" to power B+ voltage. You might need two
of these "cubes" to get enough B+ for mobile operation.

[]
I can _just_ - this would have been in the 1970s, in a rural town in
north England - remember seeing such batteries on sale. About the shape
(and size, and IIRR weight!) of a house brick, with a three prong
connector in the middle. (I have a vague memory that it might have been
90V, but it could have been two hundred and something - or even two
different voltages, given the three prong connector.) [By the way, I
think the term "B+ voltage" is US; I'm not sure what term was used in
UK, maybe HT.]

filaments would likely be in parallel. Whereas some
radios powered from the wall, the filaments were in
series.

Indeed. If in parallel, they could be different current ratings but had
to be the same voltage (e. g. for battery/cell powered sets); if in
series, they needed to be the same current rating but could be different
voltages (provided they all added up to the supply voltage - sometimes
with a big green series resistor to drop some of it and/or limit the on
surge!).
[]

You are perfectly right!

Well, unless you wanted to keep them as a museum exhibit, you could find
out by ripping the flat batteries apart to see how many cells they
contained (which I expect would have been ordinary 1.5 volt cells,
though of unusual shapes). I'd have thought they'd have the voltage
printed on them, though.

(-:

A fascinating diversion, this, for something like the Windows 7
newsgroup - I hope the rest don't mind! They might also enjoy
http://www.bvwtm.org.uk/tour/.

Amazing stuff there! This is great.
They still use tubes in guitar amps. I developed one with tubes, years ago.
And I used to have a radio xmittor with tubes.

In the old days there were radio receivers with tubes with the filaments
in series, so they didn't need a transformer. Plate voltage was directly
rectified from the mains.

I can remember having seen portable radio receiver equipment with tubes
in cars. Never seen those plate batteries though.

Fokke

 

[John Williamson]

Just curious. Is "tyoobs" universally used in the UK? I would have
expected that in some places, it would be"tyoobs," but in other places
"toobs" would be much more common.

Just like in the US, where a word like "car" would have big
differences in pronunciation depending on what part of the country
you're in.

It normally sounds more like choobs, to be honest. I've never heard a UK
native say "toobs" except as an affectation or when taking the mickey
out of the audiophools.

 

[John Williamson]

Yes!
I used to have a tube handbook with tubes which have a filament voltage
of 1.4 volt and an anode voltage of 90 volts. For battery use!

Wonderful days!

A number of companies made sets using these. I know of at least one that
still works almost as well as the day it was made. The 90V battery used
to last a lot longer than the 1.5 V filament battery. I heard during the
1960s and 1970s of people making replacement mains power supplies for
these sets that fitted into the same space as the batteries.

 

[Fokke Nauta]

A number of companies made sets using these. I know of at least one that
still works almost as well as the day it was made. The 90V battery used
to last a lot longer than the 1.5 V filament battery. I heard during the
1960s and 1970s of people making replacement mains power supplies for
these sets that fitted into the same space as the batteries.

The anode supply draws only a few milliamps. Filament current was much more.
But wonderful, if one could develope a power supply that fits in the
battery compartment!

Fokke

 

[Ken Blake]

It normally sounds more like choobs, to be honest. I've never heard a UK
native say "toobs" except as an affectation or when taking the mickey
out of the audiophools.

Groozie for now. ;-)

 

[DanS]

You must live outside the UK, probably in America, then.

Yes, I live on the continent of North America.

To us here in the UK, a "tube" normally refers to a CRT as used in a TV
set.

Here a "TV tube" would indicate the CRT, but other than that, tubes would
just mean vacuum tubes in a non-specific application.

 

[Mellowed]

It's funny....I've been "into" electronics since I was a little kid, and
actively working in an electronics based field, and up until a year or two
ago, never heard the word "valve" used as a reference to a vacuum tube.

This thread struck my 'funny bone'. Many decades ago I was introduced
to 'valves' by the Brits. If you think about it it is very logical as
the function of a tube is as a 'valve', an electron variable valve. My
introduction to Electronics was with tubes, i.e. before transistors.
Brought back memories.

 

[John Williamson]

The anode supply draws only a few milliamps. Filament current was much
more.
But wonderful, if one could develope a power supply that fits in the
battery compartment!

Given the size of these batteries and the power needed, it wasn't
exactly hard, once you could buy diodes with a PRV of over 120 volts.
ISTR the difficult bit was extracting the connectors intact from a dead
battery.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And
that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital
watch has one of those in it.

The last time I looked inside a quartz watch, I couldn't find a trimmer,
to my (mild) annoyance.

It was a Timex, if that is in any way relevant.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]

And if you don't like quartz crystals, they do make pretty
small atomic clocks.

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-05/smallest-atomic-clock-e
ver-now-sale

Paul

I hadn't realised the technology had come on so! Mind you, at a tenth of
a watt, that one's not going to run for long on an AA cell or two - and
I don't have $1500 to spare either ... (-: [Still impressive, though.]

Now I need to know how to set it to a suitable precision.

BTW, if that is *not* easy to do, I will cry when the first AAA cell
fades (I know you said AA, I'm just being weird).

Thanks Paul, for the link.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Well, unless you wanted to keep them as a museum exhibit, you could find
out by ripping the flat batteries apart to see how many cells they
contained (which I expect would have been ordinary 1.5 volt cells,
though of unusual shapes). I'd have thought they'd have the voltage
printed on them, though.

They didn't have anything printed on them. They were maybe 1.25" square
and 0.25" thick, and didn't look much like flashlight cells.

The dimensions are from a disassembly I did around the early 50's +- a
decade or so, and are not to be trusted.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Unfortunately a language problem. Though I could have known better ...

Native speakers make that error 90% of the time, so you needn't question
your English. You might even have learned the terms by hearing the way
most English speakers use them, including those of us who claim to know
the difference (I am guilty as charged).

BTW, your posts generally don't show much sign of the difficulties you
feel. You are doing well...