OT.... but I need help

[Ken Blake]

I thought of that. But I'd need a ladder at least ten feet high. It's
almost at the top of the wall.

Bring a pair of binoculars.

 

[charlie]

I have in the last couple of years tried to buy a synchronous motor
clock, without success.

IIRC, I wanted to run such a clock on the output of a 12 VDC to 120 VAC
inverter to see how accurate the frequency was.

I forget what I used - maybe a plug-in timer switch - to verify the
output.

Oh - I just remembered - it was an astronomical telescope. The frequency
was reasonable, but not up to power-line precision. Good enough to run
small appliances, not clocks

Years ago, I remember seeing frequency meters that were made with
vibrating reeds. The good ones were quite accurate, but not as accurate
as the crystal controlled stuff around today.

General Electric used to make relays and other devices designed to work
from power frequencies as low as 20Hz. I really don't know who would be
using such things today.

A/C Generators are interesting creatures when it comes to getting them
to put out the exact frequency and voltage desired. Rotating mass has a
great deal to do with maintaining frequency. Coils inside the generator
(Not the main windings actually producing power) are involved in
maintaining the correct voltage. I still remember a local power plant
that lost steam, shut down as a result, and had re-start problems.
Several car batteries from employees cars in the parking lot were used
to get the initial DC exciter voltage. The national power grid wasn't so
national at the time. Bad weather had taken down parts of the area grid
between local plants, and more or less isolated a primary area supplied
by the plant.

Syncing generators used to be done with a light connected between them.
(Dark Light)
I'm sure that there are more highfalutin methods these days.
Heck, you can buy camping generators with parallel sync capability built in.

My "emergency" 15kw portable generator uses a rudimentary solid state
regulator, and a stepping motor for throttle control. The generator has
built in windings that control the output voltage with current from the
regulator. It's not anywhere perfect, in that there is always some
engine surge. Good enough though, that normal household items and
electronics are happy, other than synchronous clocks. (Gain a few, loose
a few)

 

[Paul]

Years ago, I remember seeing frequency meters that were made with
vibrating reeds. The good ones were quite accurate, but not as accurate
as the crystal controlled stuff around today.

General Electric used to make relays and other devices designed to work
from power frequencies as low as 20Hz. I really don't know who would be
using such things today.

A/C Generators are interesting creatures when it comes to getting them
to put out the exact frequency and voltage desired. Rotating mass has a
great deal to do with maintaining frequency. Coils inside the generator
(Not the main windings actually producing power) are involved in
maintaining the correct voltage. I still remember a local power plant
that lost steam, shut down as a result, and had re-start problems.
Several car batteries from employees cars in the parking lot were used
to get the initial DC exciter voltage. The national power grid wasn't so
national at the time. Bad weather had taken down parts of the area grid
between local plants, and more or less isolated a primary area supplied
by the plant.

Syncing generators used to be done with a light connected between them.
(Dark Light)
I'm sure that there are more highfalutin methods these days.
Heck, you can buy camping generators with parallel sync capability built
in.

My "emergency" 15kw portable generator uses a rudimentary solid state
regulator, and a stepping motor for throttle control. The generator has
built in windings that control the output voltage with current from the
regulator. It's not anywhere perfect, in that there is always some
engine surge. Good enough though, that normal household items and
electronics are happy, other than synchronous clocks. (Gain a few, loose
a few)

Niagara Falls had low frequency power generation. Apparently
this facility was shut down in 2008.

http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pes/public/2008/jan/peshistory.html

And my physics professor relates a story, of studying under incandescent
lights that "pulsed" because of the lower frequency used where ever he
was living at the time. So somewhere else in North America, they had
a lower frequency supply for a time as well. I doubt the individual
in question, lived in Niagara Falls or even remotely close to it.

Paul

 

[Ed Cryer]

Possible atomic clock of some kind?

I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to
have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look what
googling has produced.

It looks just like this;
http://www.walmart.com/ip/14-Analog-Atomic-Wall-Clock-Pearl/13443480

And then take a look at these hits for images on "Analog Atomic Wall
Clock"; there are zillions.
http://tinyurl.com/bt95lv3

There must be quite a lot of these things in use around the world. The
write-up says;
Radio-Controlled Atomic Time
Automatically sets to exact time
Accurate to the second
Automatically updates for daylight saving time (on/off option)
4 time zone settings
14'' Plastic Frame
Simple Operation: Insert One AA Alkaline Battery (not included)
After signal is received, press Time Zone button to set
Four Time Zone Settings
Daylight Saving Time Option On/Off
Manual Reset Button




Ed

 

[Paul]

I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to
have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look what
googling has produced.

It looks just like this;
http://www.walmart.com/ip/14-Analog-Atomic-Wall-Clock-Pearl/13443480

And then take a look at these hits for images on "Analog Atomic Wall
Clock"; there are zillions.
http://tinyurl.com/bt95lv3

There must be quite a lot of these things in use around the world. The
write-up says;
Radio-Controlled Atomic Time
Automatically sets to exact time
Accurate to the second
Automatically updates for daylight saving time (on/off option)
4 time zone settings
14'' Plastic Frame
Simple Operation: Insert One AA Alkaline Battery (not included)
After signal is received, press Time Zone button to set
Four Time Zone Settings
Daylight Saving Time Option On/Off
Manual Reset Button

Ed

According to this, that product uses WWVB.

http://www.lacrosse-clock.com/lacrosse_technology.htm

The signal strength varies through the day. So if it
was having a reception problem, you'd wait until the
signal reached peak strength, to see if the clock could
pick it up.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/radioclocks.cfm

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB )

Amazing it runs off one AA alkaline cell. So while
you don't have to set the time, the battery is still
going to need changing.

Paul

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I have in the last couple of years tried to buy a synchronous motor
clock, without success.

IIRC, I wanted to run such a clock on the output of a 12 VDC to 120 VAC
inverter to see how accurate the frequency was.

[]
If that's all you want it for, the cheapest type of digital alarm clocks
- the sort with four LED digits, and a beep alarm and sometimes a radio
- still tend to count mains (line) cycles. Probably impossible to tell
before purchase, though. I'd have thought they'd have switched to quartz
like everyone else by now, but presumably the circuit design (it's
basically one chip, for the clock parts anyway) stabilised some decades
ago, and there's been no reason to alter it.

Interesting. I had thought they all used xtals these days (or even RC
networks - what else could explain the lousy timekeeping of a couple
I've seen?).

Thanks.

 

[Ed Cryer]

According to this, that product uses WWVB.

http://www.lacrosse-clock.com/lacrosse_technology.htm

The signal strength varies through the day. So if it
was having a reception problem, you'd wait until the
signal reached peak strength, to see if the clock could
pick it up.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/radioclocks.cfm

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB )

Amazing it runs off one AA alkaline cell. So while
you don't have to set the time, the battery is still
going to need changing.

Paul

I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock
needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind
you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing.

Ed

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Years ago, I remember seeing frequency meters that were made with
vibrating reeds. The good ones were quite accurate, but not as accurate
as the crystal controlled stuff around today.

General Electric used to make relays and other devices designed to work
from power frequencies as low as 20Hz. I really don't know who would be
using such things today.

A/C Generators are interesting creatures when it comes to getting them
to put out the exact frequency and voltage desired. Rotating mass has a
great deal to do with maintaining frequency. Coils inside the generator
(Not the main windings actually producing power) are involved in
maintaining the correct voltage. I still remember a local power plant
that lost steam, shut down as a result, and had re-start problems.
Several car batteries from employees cars in the parking lot were used
to get the initial DC exciter voltage. The national power grid wasn't so
national at the time. Bad weather had taken down parts of the area grid
between local plants, and more or less isolated a primary area supplied
by the plant.

Syncing generators used to be done with a light connected between them.
(Dark Light)
I'm sure that there are more highfalutin methods these days.
Heck, you can buy camping generators with parallel sync capability built in.

My "emergency" 15kw portable generator uses a rudimentary solid state
regulator, and a stepping motor for throttle control. The generator has
built in windings that control the output voltage with current from the
regulator. It's not anywhere perfect, in that there is always some
engine surge. Good enough though, that normal household items and
electronics are happy, other than synchronous clocks. (Gain a few, loose
a few)

Thanks for the education.

I have seen the vibrating reed frequency meters before, but for syncing
generators on the ship I served on, there was a phase meter wired
between them.

There was no reserve power, battery or diesel, so when we lost both
generators, which were steam powered, it was hard to get going again.
Someone had to manually pump fuel into the boiler firebox long enough to
get the generators going. Fun. I'm glad it only happened once while I
was on board

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock
needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind
you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing.

Ed

Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase

Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes
(valves).

 

[Fokke Nauta]

In North America, there is WWV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)

There is also GPS, but that's at a higher frequency, and may be
harder to receive inside a building.

Whatever radio source is uses, the format of signal would have
to be simple enough, for a cheap synchronization design. With
processors being as cheap as they are now, that wouldn't present
a problem today. But might have been an issue when that particular
clock was built.

This device claims to set itself via radio signal.

http://www.amazon.com/Sangean-America-Radio-Controlled-Atomic-Digital/dp/B0010HUAIO


"Radio Controlled clock available for DCF/WWVB/MSF/JJY"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSF_time_signal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJY

Interesting collection of frequencies. The low frequencies
are in the same range as the ones submarines use. Whereas
the WWV thing is shortwave.

Paul

Hey, our alarm clock listens to DCF77. Wasn't aware of that!

Interesting info!

Fokke

 

[Fokke Nauta]

Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase

Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes
(valves).

Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage.

Fokke

 

[Paul]

Hey, our alarm clock listens to DCF77. Wasn't aware of that!

Interesting info!

Fokke

What I missed when I posted that, is WWV is shortwave, while
WWVB is the lower frequency. So the DCF/WWVB/MSF/JJY signals
are around 100KHz or less.

This article, lists a few more transmitters. There are
more than those four above.

http://www.edn-europe.com/receivera...econtrolapplications+article+4148+Europe.html

Paul

 

[Fokke Nauta]

Your kids are swimming so fast, they're slowing time and sending out
"time quakes" that interfere with the clock.

Or they are swimming faster (300,000 km/sec) and are ahead of time?

Fokke

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Drew wrote: []

Possible atomic clock of some kind?

I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to
have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look
what googling has produced.

[]
Bad (I'd say bordering on illegal, but it must be only bordering as
they've been doing it for ages now) use of advertising copy.

These clocks are _not_ atomic; they use radio signals from a reference
elsewhere, which _may_ use an atomic clock mechanism for reference.

A true atomic clock is very bulky, extremely expensive, and somewhat
heavy.

What's more, they advertise these clocks (and watches) as "accurate to a
second in a million years" (or that sort of thing). Which, of course,
they're not: the clock they're _linked_ to _may_ be. Can't see how they
get away with such claims, but they obviously do.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

My little Auriol has all of those except the moon phase, and contains
two AAAs; they're the cheap (zinc-carbon?) kind, are the ones that came
with it, and have been in since I got the clock.

(-:

Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage.

Fokke

One battery, containing 200 cells ... though single cells do tend to be
referred to as "batteries" these days. A car battery, or a PP3 or PP9,
is a true battery; AA, AAA, C, D, etc. are cells.

 

[Fat-Dumb and Happy]

In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It
keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself.
However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps
round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after
4-00pm, and continues normally.

I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in
amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features
and say they don't know.

The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all
about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did
that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why.

My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day
at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like
and haven't found the answer.

Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know
more.

Ed

It's just an "atomic time" clock resetting itself when it gets a half
second out of time, it can't go backwards so it spins around until it
get to where it's supposed to be. One of mine does the same thing
sometimes. No biggie just doing what they are supposed to do. Trains
were the main reason to standardize time way way back. An interesting
read if you like that kind of thing.
http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/d.html

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage.

Fokke

Good one!

In the old days, they made batteries with about 60 cells and used tubes
that needed a B+ (that's engineer's slang for anode voltage) of 90
volts.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Drew wrote: []

Possible atomic clock of some kind?

I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to
have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look
what googling has produced.

[]
Bad (I'd say bordering on illegal, but it must be only bordering as
they've been doing it for ages now) use of advertising copy.

These clocks are _not_ atomic; they use radio signals from a reference
elsewhere, which _may_ use an atomic clock mechanism for reference.

A true atomic clock is very bulky, extremely expensive, and somewhat
heavy.

What's more, they advertise these clocks (and watches) as "accurate to a
second in a million years" (or that sort of thing). Which, of course,
they're not: the clock they're _linked_ to _may_ be. Can't see how they
get away with such claims, but they obviously do.

Well, people like you and me notice it, so they aren't really getting
away with it

 

[Paul]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:59:39 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote: []
I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock
needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind
you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the
thing.

Ed

My little Auriol has all of those except the moon phase, and contains
two AAAs; they're the cheap (zinc-carbon?) kind, are the ones that came
with it, and have been in since I got the clock.

(-:

Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage.

Fokke

One battery, containing 200 cells ... though single cells do tend to be
referred to as "batteries" these days. A car battery, or a PP3 or PP9,
is a true battery; AA, AAA, C, D, etc. are cells.

On old vacuum radio gear, there were two sets of batteries.
There were large "cylinders" to be used for filaments.
And "cubes" to power B+ voltage. You might need two
of these "cubes" to get enough B+ for mobile operation.
These are 67.5 volts each.

http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=196817

Something like this might have been for filaments. The
filaments would likely be in parallel. Whereas some
radios powered from the wall, the filaments were in
series.

http://www.radiolaguy.com/images/misc/No6-A-cells-x4.jpg

This is just a vague recollection of some stuff my father
brought home when I was quite young. All the batteries
in this case, were flat, so there was no chance to
verify how many batteries were needed to run it. I
could have done some serious damage as an experimenter,
if those B+ batteries were working.

Paul

 

[Bob I]

I thought of that. But I'd need a ladder at least ten feet high. It's
almost at the top of the wall.

Binoculars? Many years ago, I saw something similar happen, clock at the
school ran slightly fast and at sync time it would advance 11 hours and
59 minutes to lose the 1 minute it was ahead. (or in reality 12 hours as
it took almost a minute to spin the 12 revolutions)