How many of you are ready to run out and upgrade to Windows 8?

[Steve Hayes]

If that's the case, you've been extremely lucky. A backup from one
computer will normally not run on a different one, and a clean
installation is required.

It took about 3-4 hours to restore all the partitions, and when it started up
all my programs worked. I needed to install a couple of different drivers for
the video card etc. I did NOT have to go hunring for installation disks for
other programs.

 

[Char Jackson]

To take just one example, in Windows XP I have the following in the
autoexec.bat file:

SET CLASSPATH=C:\Program Files\PhotoDeluxe 2.0\AdobeConnectables
SET PATH=%PATH%;c:\windows;c:\du;e:\xy;c:\belfry

The top line was put there by some other line, and the bottom line wqas put
there by me.

It did not work in Windows 7, and it took me several months to find out how to
achieve the same effect in Windows 7.

I bought a book called "Windows 7 for dummies" and it didn't tell me how to do
that.

I haven't bought a computer-related book since "Introduction to 6502
Assembly Language Programming" in 1983 so I'm no authority on what
should be in a book or not, but I give your book the benefit of the
doubt because only a teeny tiny fraction of a percent of people will
ever have to manually edit system variables, including the PATH
statement. Even so, "several months"? I can fully understand putting
tasks on the back burner for extended periods of time, so I assume
that you spent about 5-10 minutes on this task during that several
month period, right?

And if it is in the help file that comes with Windows I wasn't able to find
it.

I would not call that "best documentation".

Much of the time it took to instal was spent looking in help files for stuff
that was either not there or so well hidden that it could not be found.

I suppose it's a bit like doing a web search. There's way too much Win
7 documentation available (within Windows itself) to read it all, so
it becomes a matter of knowing some key terms that you can search for.
Garbage in, garbage out, unfortunately.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson

I haven't bought a computer-related book since "Introduction to 6502
Assembly Language Programming" in 1983 so I'm no authority on what
should be in a book or not, but I give your book the benefit of the

http://www.tweakguides.com/TGTC.html are quite good (free, or $4.50 for
the one that includes screenshots; for XP, Vista, and 7).
[]

I suppose it's a bit like doing a web search. There's way too much Win
7 documentation available (within Windows itself) to read it all, so
it becomes a matter of knowing some key terms that you can search for.
Garbage in, garbage out, unfortunately.

That's a little harsh: just because he/I don't think of the same terms
as the help-text writers, that's no reason to call what we say garbage.
(In fact Microsoft _do_ get frequently criticised for changing the name
of things, right back to File Manager becoming Windows Explorer if not
before. Though from what little experience I have of it, W7's system
_is_ good at finding what you want.)

 

[Char Jackson]

That's a little harsh:

Excuse me?

just because he/I don't think of the same terms
as the help-text writers, that's no reason to call what we say garbage.

You're apparently unfamiliar with the very popular and well-known
phrase, "garbage in, garbage out'. Here, let me help you:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out>

 

[Steve Hayes]

I haven't bought a computer-related book since "Introduction to 6502
Assembly Language Programming" in 1983 so I'm no authority on what
should be in a book or not, but I give your book the benefit of the
doubt because only a teeny tiny fraction of a percent of people will
ever have to manually edit system variables, including the PATH
statement. Even so, "several months"? I can fully understand putting
tasks on the back burner for extended periods of time, so I assume
that you spent about 5-10 minutes on this task during that several
month period, right?

Right. Whast I am talking about is the time it takes to get the computer into
a state that I can actually use it to do things 95% of the time rather than
spending time doing things to the computer so I can use it.

I suppose it's a bit like doing a web search. There's way too much Win
7 documentation available (within Windows itself) to read it all, so
it becomes a matter of knowing some key terms that you can search for.
Garbage in, garbage out, unfortunately.

It would help if they didn't change the key terms with every version, which
they seem to do deliberately in order to make them difficult to find, so you
spend a lot of time trying to find out how to make the computer to work before
you can get it to work for you... revision marking/track changes, for example.
That is not part of the OS, of course, but it's still Microsoft's poor
documentation.

 

[Steve Hayes]

Not really - each user still has a Documents folder, a Pictures folder,
a Music folder, a videos folder. The actual path doesn't really matter....

The actual path DOES matter if you want to find out how to put stuff there or
get it out of there.

And it is precisely that attitude that "the actual path doesn't matter" that
makes setting up a new computer from scratch (or reinstalling the OS) such a
long, involved and frustrating process.

I'm not talking about the actual time you spend setting it up, or even the
time you waste trying to find out how to set it up because there are so many
idiots at Microsoft who think things like "the actual path doesn't matter",
but rather the time between when you install the operating system and the time
you can actually use the computer productively.

I am unlikely to want to install Windows 8 because it took me two years to get
Windows 7 to work more or less the way way I want it to, and I really don't
want to go though that again until I absolutely have to.

 

[Steve Hayes]

On 06/10/12 15:04, Ken Blake wrote:

Then you should use a disk imaging program. Easy.

But, as Ken pointed out, you are very lucky if you can get a disk imaging
program to actually work.

It worked for me, but apparently I was lucky.

 

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:40:51 +0200, Steve Hayes

But when I needed to replace my desktop computer, I bought a new one without
an operating system and restored my Acronis backups. It took me a few hours to
update drivers, etc, but not the months (if not years) that a fresh instal
would require.

As others have said, if a fresh install (OS, apps, tweaks) takes more
than about 4-6 hours, you're probably jumping into it unprepared.

You're not being fair: such "preparation time" must be added.
[]

When you decide to paint your house and someone later asks you how
long it took, do you add the amount of time it took you to decide on a
color and visit the paint store to buy paint and brushes? I don't.

My point is that you can usually take all the time that you want to
prepare for a task, but you certainly wouldn't include that planning
time when you report on how long the task took to complete.

But if you spend an hour a day painting your house, and on some days you have
no time to do any painting at all, you might be living in unpainted rooms, or
with the stuff that is in those rooms packed away in the garage, and though
the actual time you spent painting the house may only amount to, say, 100
hours, it may be several months between the time you first set scraper to
wall, and the time the whole house is painted, and in that time a lot of your
stuff is unusable because it is stored away.

 

[Char Jackson]

In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:40:51 +0200, Steve Hayes

But when I needed to replace my desktop computer, I bought a new one without
an operating system and restored my Acronis backups. It took me a few hours to
update drivers, etc, but not the months (if not years) that a fresh instal
would require.

As others have said, if a fresh install (OS, apps, tweaks) takes more
than about 4-6 hours, you're probably jumping into it unprepared.

You're not being fair: such "preparation time" must be added.
[]

When you decide to paint your house and someone later asks you how
long it took, do you add the amount of time it took you to decide on a
color and visit the paint store to buy paint and brushes? I don't.

My point is that you can usually take all the time that you want to
prepare for a task, but you certainly wouldn't include that planning
time when you report on how long the task took to complete.

But if you spend an hour a day painting your house, and on some days you have
no time to do any painting at all, you might be living in unpainted rooms, or
with the stuff that is in those rooms packed away in the garage, and though
the actual time you spent painting the house may only amount to, say, 100
hours, it may be several months between the time you first set scraper to
wall, and the time the whole house is painted, and in that time a lot of your
stuff is unusable because it is stored away.

Point taken, so bringing it back around to doing a fresh install of an
OS, we could say that some people just plow through the entire task
all at once while others tend to drag it out. I'd rather get it done
in 4 hours instead of spreading it out over a period of two years.
Neither approach is wrong, though.

 

[Char Jackson]

The actual path DOES matter if you want to find out how to put stuff there or
get it out of there.

If you can find how to launch Windows Explorer in Win 7, you're 99.9%
of the way to finding where to put your user files. You're about one
click away, at that point.

 

[Steve Hayes]

If you can find how to launch Windows Explorer in Win 7, you're 99.9%
of the way to finding where to put your user files. You're about one
click away, at that point.

Well I'll have to try that out next time I'm running my Win 7 machine, if i
remember.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Excuse me?


You're apparently unfamiliar with the very popular and well-known
phrase, "garbage in, garbage out'. Here, let me help you:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out>

I'm perfectly familiar with the term - I even have a Latin translation
of it. I requote what you said above: "it becomes a matter of knowing
some key terms that you can search for. Garbage in, garbage out,
unfortunately." You may have meant something else, but I interpreted it
as meaning that if I don't use exactly the right "key terms", you (and
the help system creators) think I'm spouting garbage. And, as Steve
Hayes has agreed, Microsoft change the "key terms" for no obvious
reason, about as often as they change the OS. Though, as I said earlier,
7's help system does seem to recognise some of the older phrases - not
all, but it's the best so far, as it ought to be.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

If you can find how to launch Windows Explorer in Win 7, you're 99.9%
of the way to finding where to put your user files. You're about one
click away, at that point.

(I know how to launch Explorer - Win-E still works in 7.)

That's a bit like saying if you can start the engine, you're 99.9% of
the way to being able to drive. How does starting Explorer show you
where to put your user files? Even if you're one click away, how do you
know where to click?

 

[Steve Hayes]

(I know how to launch Explorer - Win-E still works in 7.)

That's a bit like saying if you can start the engine, you're 99.9% of
the way to being able to drive. How does starting Explorer show you
where to put your user files? Even if you're one click away, how do you
know where to click?

Exactly. And it isn't one click, it's several, and if you don't know where to
click, it's clicking your way down and back up again as you come to ma dead
end in the menu maze.

Knowing what I do know about Windows 7 (after nearly 3 years), if I was back
at the beginning I would now know to click C: (1 click) then "Users" (2
clicks) then "My Documents" (3 clicks) and "Properties" (4 clicks) -- but I
didn't know that back then.

So it certainly isn't 1 click away, it's at least 4 clicks away.

What I actually did when I started was create a directory called C:\stevedoc
and copy my files in there.

Then after a few sessions reading "Windows 7 for dummies" in the bath I found
out how to map "My Documents" to C:stevedoc (I hate spaces in the path, and
directory names with more than 8 characters because some of my software
doesn't understand such things). And I then discovered how to include that in
a "Library" But it took a while.

And I have little doubt that Windows 8 will find even better ways to hide
stuff, just as Windows 7 found a good way to hide the command prompt (on of
the first things I did when installing Windows 7 (and XP for that matter) was
to put the command prompt on the Windows deskto. I gather Windows 8 now hides
the desktop as well.

 

[Char Jackson]

I'm perfectly familiar with the term - I even have a Latin translation
of it. I requote what you said above: "it becomes a matter of knowing
some key terms that you can search for. Garbage in, garbage out,
unfortunately." You may have meant something else, but I interpreted it
as meaning that if I don't use exactly the right "key terms", you (and
the help system creators) think I'm spouting garbage. And, as Steve
Hayes has agreed, Microsoft change the "key terms" for no obvious
reason, about as often as they change the OS. Though, as I said earlier,
7's help system does seem to recognise some of the older phrases - not
all, but it's the best so far, as it ought to be.

You say you're familiar with the term, but you clearly misunderstand
its meaning. You've interpreted it as pejorative, but it's not. I
suppose the best thing would be to ignore it and move on.

 

[Char Jackson]

(I know how to launch Explorer - Win-E still works in 7.)

That's a bit like saying if you can start the engine, you're 99.9% of
the way to being able to drive. How does starting Explorer show you
where to put your user files? Even if you're one click away, how do you
know where to click?

I feel like I'm stating the obvious, but maybe your Explorer screen
doesn't look like all of the Win 7 Explorer screens that I've seen to
date. Anyway, when you launch Windows Explorer, one of the categories
on the left is the user name of the person currently logged in.

Is it a stretch to think that maybe, just maybe, an acceptable place
to put your user files would be in there? Let's see. One click to
expand that branch and what do we see? Among others, we see My
Documents, My Pictures, My Videos, etc. Mind blowing, eh?

But wait, let's say a person has no idea what their account name is,
so they ignore that branch, but they see a category on the left called
Libraries. In common everyday English, libraries are a place to store
things, right? One click to expand that branch and what do we see?
Another mind blowing event, to be sure, since we see folders called
Documents, Pictures, Videos, and Music. This stuff just isn't that
hard.

The other thing, of course, is that there are no rules dictating where
you must store your personal files. Create a folder anywhere you like
and use it, for cryin' out loud. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Char Jackson]

Exactly. And it isn't one click, it's several, and if you don't know where to
click, it's clicking your way down and back up again as you come to ma dead
end in the menu maze.

Knowing what I do know about Windows 7 (after nearly 3 years), if I was back
at the beginning I would now know to click C: (1 click) then "Users" (2
clicks) then "My Documents" (3 clicks) and "Properties" (4 clicks) -- but I
didn't know that back then.

So it certainly isn't 1 click away, it's at least 4 clicks away.

What I actually did when I started was create a directory called C:\stevedoc
and copy my files in there.

Then after a few sessions reading "Windows 7 for dummies" in the bath I found
out how to map "My Documents" to C:stevedoc (I hate spaces in the path, and
directory names with more than 8 characters because some of my software
doesn't understand such things). And I then discovered how to include that in
a "Library" But it took a while.

And I have little doubt that Windows 8 will find even better ways to hide
stuff, just as Windows 7 found a good way to hide the command prompt (on of
the first things I did when installing Windows 7 (and XP for that matter) was
to put the command prompt on the Windows deskto. I gather Windows 8 now hides
the desktop as well.

Ridiculous. Nothing has been hidden from you.

 

[Stan Brown]

I feel like I'm stating the obvious, but maybe your Explorer screen
doesn't look like all of the Win 7 Explorer screens that I've seen to
date. Anyway, when you launch Windows Explorer, one of the categories
on the left is the user name of the person currently logged in.

Not on my screen.

Having that there is a user-configurable option, and I've turned it
off., Perhaps the PP did too.

 

[Char Jackson]

Not on my screen.

Having that there is a user-configurable option, and I've turned it
off., Perhaps the PP did too.

I'm not sure what user-configurable option you're referring to. Can
you clarify, please?

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

[snip]

But wait, let's say a person has no idea what their account name is,
so they ignore that branch, but they see a category on the left called
Libraries. In common everyday English, libraries are a place to store
things, right? One click to expand that branch and what do we see?

To take things out from for most people.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko