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[Gene E. Bloch]

In message <[email protected]>, "J. P. Gilliver
In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake
[]
But many English words that come from the Latin aren't pronounced as
they are in Latin. For example, do you know anyone who pronounces

Indeed. And then there's the question of how the plural (or
occasionally the singular) should be formed. (If you want to light the
kindling, discuss whether the plural of octopus is octopuses, octopi,
octopodes, ... [to my surprise, my spillchucker accepted the first two
of those three!]. Plus you can take it to the extremes of whether the
endings should decline if the word isn't the subject - when talking of
alumnorum, for example!)

"alumni" as it's pronounced in Latin--"alumnee."

Standard English, again, according to all my dictionaries, including
the OED, has the singular pronounced "a-gha" and the plural "al-jee."

If we're talking of "algae", I'd say the singular is so rarely used
that it's as near obsolete as it is possible for it to be. (I _presume_
you omitted the l accidentally; if not, I certainly haven't come across
that wrinkle. It would remind me of the strange French plural of eggs -
"un oeuf, deux oeufs" [one egg, two eggs] being IIRR pronounced "ern
erf, duh zuh".)

I never knew that about "les oeufs". Are you sure you're not thinking
about "un oeil, deux yeux"?

My French-English dictionary agrees with Ken.

Not me. It was J. P. Gilliver.

OK, sorry for the glitch.

Since I get annoyed when that happens to me, I have a responsibility to
be careful in making attributions...

 

[Anthony Buckland]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake

But many English words that come from the Latin aren't pronounced as
they are in Latin. For example, do you know anyone who pronounces

Indeed. And then there's the question of how the plural (or
occasionally the singular) should be formed. (If you want to light the
kindling, discuss whether the plural of octopus is octopuses, octopi,
octopodes, ... [to my surprise, my spillchucker accepted the first two
of those three!]. Plus you can take it to the extremes of whether the
endings should decline if the word isn't the subject - when talking of
alumnorum, for example!)

"alumni" as it's pronounced in Latin--"alumnee."

Standard English, again, according to all my dictionaries, including
the OED, has the singular pronounced "a-gha" and the plural "al-jee."

If we're talking of "algae", I'd say the singular is so rarely used
that it's as near obsolete as it is possible for it to be. (I
_presume_ you omitted the l accidentally; if not, I certainly haven't
come across that wrinkle. It would remind me of the strange French
plural of eggs - "un oeuf, deux oeufs" [one egg, two eggs] being IIRR
pronounced "ern erf, duh zuh".)

I never knew that about "les oeufs". Are you sure you're not thinking
about "un oeil, deux yeux"?

You want pronunciation, go to the movie "The
Passion of the Christ," which is entirely in
Aramaic and Latin. You know how you pronounce
"Caesar" when you order a salad, "seize her?"
In the movie it was pronounced, correctly, by
a priest, as "Kaiser" (which the Germans kept
for the emperor in their brief empire) --
"Big Cheese" comes from that in American
slang English.

 

[Anthony Buckland]

...
"Data, of course is from the Latin "data," which is the plural of the
second declension neuter noun, "datum." But that doesn't mean that in
English, we have to treat it as plural. I almost always treat it as a
mass noun, not a count noun, so it doesn't have singular and plural
forms.

Not about data, but somewhat similar, is one of my favorite stories
(supposedly true, but you never can be sure), about the newspaper
reporter who, while on assignment in a different state, was sent a
telegram by his editor who asked "Are there any news?"

His reply telegram read "Not a new!"

"China has lasted for milleniums."

"He was infected with a bacteria."

"Television is a media."

Which I encounter occur almost daily in
the media, spoken or written by people
whose living depends on expressing
themselves well in English.

Ah well, we just have to be like the
stripper, and "grin and bare it."

 

[Ian Jackson]

Argentina is another. I spent a week in Buenos Aires about a year and
half ago, and didn't know about this until I got there. I was very
surprised to hear that "calle" was pronounced "cazhay," "pollo" was
pronounced "pozho," "Mayo" was pronounced "Mazho," and so on.

Presumably it's the influence of their neighbour, Brazil, which is
nominally Portuguese-speaking. Portuguese is an impenetrable language
which is full of 'zhuzh' sounds. To me, it bears little resemblance to
Spanish - and possibly Brazilian Portuguese bears even less.

 

[Ken Blake]

Are you saying it's "minus'cule"?

Yes.


Where'd you find that?

I don't remember, but I've known it for years

..

Never mind - I found it as the second pronunciation one of four American
dictionaries, as the only pronunciation in cOED, and as the second of
three pronunciations in OED2.

I just checked in my dictionaries. WNI2 (my preferred American
dictionary) has it as the only pronunciation, and Random House and
American Heritage both, to my surprise, has it as only the second
choice. But Random House and American Heritage are both newer than
WNI2, so it shouldn't be a surprise. These things change as time goes
by.

Not enough to justify to me the idea that min'uscule is wrong...

I knew that not everyone would agree with me. <g>

Here's another very commonly mispronounced word (and not everyone will
agree with me on this either): "harass." Most people say "har-ASS" by
confusion with "ass," but I say "HAR-us." WNI2 gives both
pronunciations, but "HAR-us" is first. I didn't bother checking my
others.

 

[Ken Blake]

[]
And going back a little ways in this thread, talking about
mispronunciation, one of the most commonly mispronounced (and also
misspelled) words these days is "minuscule."

I almost never hear anyone pronounce it correctly and I see it
misspelled almost all the time, even in books, newspapers, etc.

A (probably natural) confusion with "mini-thing' tending to mean
'small-thing'.

Sure. Confusion with many words beginning "mini-," starting with
"miniature."

Even the error in pronunciation (putting the accent on the first
syllable instead of the second) comes from that.

I rather fear the "mis"pronunciation (and -spelling) is now sufficiently
common that it'll be in dictionaries.

Mispronunciation yes. But misspelling, not yet (but you are probably
right that it will get there).

(How do _you_ pronounce the first syllable - short as in mini-, or long
as in minus?)

Short. How about you?

 

[Ken Blake]

"China has lasted for milleniums."

Double ugh! Both the number and the spelling are wrong. But
"millenium" is an extremely common misspelling.

"He was infected with a bacteria."

Ugh! Another second declension neuter Latin noun, and it's very common
that people don't realize that the singular of second declension
neuter Latin nouns is "-um" and the plural "-a."

"Television is a media."

Ugh! Another second declension neuter...

Which I encounter occur almost daily in
the media, spoken or written by people
whose living depends on expressing
themselves well in English.

Ah well, we just have to be like the
stripper, and "grin and bare it."

LOL! I remember several years ago having an argument with somebody in
some newsgroup, who insisted that "bare" was right.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Presumably it's the influence of their neighbour, Brazil, which is
nominally Portuguese-speaking. Portuguese is an impenetrable language
which is full of 'zhuzh' sounds. To me, it bears little resemblance to
Spanish - and possibly Brazilian Portuguese bears even less.

First, I'd say the real reason that y-like sounds became dzh or zh
sounds in Spanish is the same as in English and French, and for that
matter as in Portuguese as well - natural drift of a sound into a
'neighboring' sound. Rule one for languages: they change.

As for Portuguese being very different from Spanish, I recall when I
first lived here in Si Valley, I still understood Spanish reasonably
well. In those days I often had my car radio tuned to a local Portuguese
station, where, for example, I listened to and understood the news
broadcasts.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Mispronunciation yes. But misspelling, not yet (but you are probably
right that it will get there).

For years I wrote 'miniscule'. Given that I'm generally an excellent
speller, that was a somewhat surprising error.

Eventually I learned the truth

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

LOL! I remember several years ago having an argument with somebody in
some newsgroup, who insisted that "bare" was right.

That's Usenet for ya.

 

[Mike Barnes]

LOL! I remember several years ago having an argument with somebody in
some newsgroup, who insisted that "bare" was right.

But they had another thing coming?

 

[NY]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake


It's a common difference between parts of England too. Whether certain
words have one or two syllables. Another common one is "mayor", which
(very approximately) has nearer one syllable (i. e. is pronounced "mare" -
"the mare of London") in the south-east, whereas in the north it's
pronounced as definitely two syllables, with the y separating them.
Another interesting one linked to your blooms is flour (ground corn etc.):
some parts pronounce flour and flower more or less the same, others flour
as more or less one syllable but flower as two, and some even flour as
almost two.

The difficulty arises when dictionaries use common words to define the
pronunciation of vowels in words. I have a dictionary which uses different
phonetic symbols for the vowels in "fir" and "fur" (and uses those words to
define what the symbols mean) whereas I have always thought of "fir" and
"fur" as having identical pronunciation.

 

[NY]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake
On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:18:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Our own names, of course, give foreigners fits - Featherstonehaugh,
Cholmondeley, Alnmouth but Alnwick, Ulgham ...

I know how to pronounce Cholmondeley, but not the others. Can you
help?
"Fanshaw" and "Chumley" are surnames. Alnmouth and Alnwick are
placenames in Northumberland, England. Alnmouth is - surprise - at the
mouth of the river Aln, and is pronounced exactly as you'd expect;

Alnmouth is pronounced Aln-Mouth or Aln-Mooth?

"ALN-mouth". Even the locals don't say "ALN-mooth". However, I have heard
well-meaning broadcasters occasionally say "ALN-mth". "TYNE-mth is another
victim".

I asked several local people in Alnwick (a few miles away from Alnmouth)
when I was looking round the castle (which features in the
learning-Quidditch scenes in the first Harry Potter film) and the consensus
seemed to be that Alnwick was pronounced Annick but Alnmouth was pronounced
ALL'Nm'th - ie that the L is silent in the first but sounded in the second
(OK, the W is also silent in the first).

Now let's try the placename Slaithwaite. Many people pronounce it
Slaythwayt, but the locals say "Slowit" with the "ow" as in "now" or "cow".
I was once on a train nearby and the guard said over the PA, in a broad West
Yorkshire accet, "the next station will be Slowit... that's the place that
namby-pamby pampered Southerners think is pronounced [exaggerated BBC
newsreader accent] Slaythwayt". The whole carriage, made up of local people,
cracked up with laughter at this gratuitous bit of Southerner-bashing.

What other bizarre pronunciations are there? Manea (in Cambridgeshire) is
"maynee"; Althorp (resting place of Lady Di) is "Orltrop" (note the reversal
of the "orp" to "rop") even though everyone pronounces the village nearby as
"Olthorp"; likewise the mansion at Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate is
pronounced "Harwood" House even though the village is "Harewood" (ie named
after a wood where hares were found) - I wonder whether there's a snobbery
thing "we're going to pronounce our house perversely to confuse the local
peasants".

Cirencester is a good one. Most -cester place names are pronounced in the
same bizarre way: Leicester, Bicester, Towcester are Lester, Bisster,
Toaster. But Cirencester is the exception - Sirensesster. Apart from a few
very old people or old books which maintain that it is "Sisster".

Scotland has some beauties: Kirkcudbright (KirCOObree), Milngavie (MullGUY),
Kingussie (KinYUSSie) and the surname Menzies (opinion is divided as to
whether it should be MENziz or MINGiz (the latter as used by the politician
Menzies Campbell). Apparently the Z in Menzies should be an obsolete letter
yogh rather than a z.

 

[Bob Henson]

On 27/07/2013 00:18, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake
On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:18:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Our own names, of course, give foreigners fits - Featherstonehaugh,
Cholmondeley, Alnmouth but Alnwick, Ulgham ...

I know how to pronounce Cholmondeley, but not the others. Can you
help?
"Fanshaw" and "Chumley" are surnames. Alnmouth and Alnwick are
placenames in Northumberland, England. Alnmouth is - surprise - at the
mouth of the river Aln, and is pronounced exactly as you'd expect;

Alnmouth is pronounced Aln-Mouth or Aln-Mooth?

"ALN-mouth". Even the locals don't say "ALN-mooth". However, I have heard
well-meaning broadcasters occasionally say "ALN-mth". "TYNE-mth is another
victim".

I asked several local people in Alnwick (a few miles away from Alnmouth)
when I was looking round the castle (which features in the
learning-Quidditch scenes in the first Harry Potter film) and the consensus
seemed to be that Alnwick was pronounced Annick but Alnmouth was pronounced
ALL'Nm'th - ie that the L is silent in the first but sounded in the second
(OK, the W is also silent in the first).

Now let's try the placename Slaithwaite. Many people pronounce it
Slaythwayt, but the locals say "Slowit" with the "ow" as in "now" or "cow".
I was once on a train nearby and the guard said over the PA, in a broad West
Yorkshire accet, "the next station will be Slowit... that's the place that
namby-pamby pampered Southerners think is pronounced [exaggerated BBC
newsreader accent] Slaythwayt". The whole carriage, made up of local people,
cracked up with laughter at this gratuitous bit of Southerner-bashing.

What other bizarre pronunciations are there? Manea (in Cambridgeshire) is
"maynee"; Althorp (resting place of Lady Di) is "Orltrop" (note the reversal
of the "orp" to "rop") even though everyone pronounces the village nearby as
"Olthorp"; likewise the mansion at Harewood between Leeds and Harrogate is
pronounced "Harwood" House even though the village is "Harewood" (ie named
after a wood where hares were found) - I wonder whether there's a snobbery
thing "we're going to pronounce our house perversely to confuse the local
peasants".

Cirencester is a good one. Most -cester place names are pronounced in the
same bizarre way: Leicester, Bicester, Towcester are Lester, Bisster,
Toaster. But Cirencester is the exception - Sirensesster. Apart from a few
very old people or old books which maintain that it is "Sisster".

I live nearby, and although I have heard the suggestion, I've never
actually heard "Sisster" used - maybe it's just the affected incomers from
the South again. Another odd thing that only a local would know is that the
real Gloucestershire locals accent it differently from the posh folk - they
call it CirenCESter, not CIRENcester as might be expected. They do the same
with the nearby National Arboretum at Westonbirt - accented as
WestonBURRRT, not WESTONbirt. Anyway, yesterday I passed through Ciren (as
the locals usually abbreviate it) on the way to the Swan Inn in Southrop. I
don't even know if I can spell that phonetically, but Suthrup is close. The
middle "th" is pronounced as in "mother", not as in "south". If you really
want to annoy a local (including my other half) pronounce the second half
of the nearby Ashton Keynes as "Keens" (as in Milton) instead of "Canes".

Looking at your examples and mine, and knowing how many more there are of
that ilk, it's a wonder anyone ever managed to navigate Britain before the
days of the impersonal satnav. Maybe that why we blokes refuse to ask for
directions - we probably wouldn't understand the answer anyway.

 

[Bob Henson]

For years I wrote 'miniscule'. Given that I'm generally an excellent
speller, that was a somewhat surprising error.

Eventually I learned the truth

The (online) OED says "also miniscule" these days.

 

[Ian Jackson]

I asked several local people in Alnwick (a few miles away from
Alnmouth) when I was looking round the castle (which features in the
learning-Quidditch scenes in the first Harry Potter film) and the
consensus seemed to be that Alnwick was pronounced Annick but Alnmouth
was pronounced ALL'Nm'th - ie that the L is silent in the first but
sounded in the second (OK, the W is also silent in the first).

Well, I was born and bred about 100 yards from the River Aln (albeit a
fair way upstream), and I never heard of Alnmouth pronounced as
ALL'Nm'th (except incorrectly on the radio and TV). The Aln is
pronounced like "Alan", but with no second "a", and the "mouth" is
"mouth", with a some stress on the "Aln".

It is probable that some of the discrepancies between the spellings of
placenames and their present-day pronunciation dates from when the
mapmakers were going around Britain, around the late 1700s. We have a
print of one of Northumberland, by Robert Morden, and I note that
Alnmouth is "Aylmouth". It might have been, but more likely this is just
Morden's interpretation of the local (and probably impenetrable) accent.

 

[NY]

Well, I was born and bred about 100 yards from the River Aln (albeit a
fair way upstream), and I never heard of Alnmouth pronounced as ALL'Nm'th
(except incorrectly on the radio and TV). The Aln is pronounced like
"Alan", but with no second "a", and the "mouth" is "mouth", with a some
stress on the "Aln".

Yes I think "alan without second A + mouth" is what I was trying to
represent. I can see that what I wrote implied "all" like "orl" which isn't
what I meant at all :-( My goof.

 

[NY]

NY wrote:
Anyway, yesterday I passed through Ciren (as
the locals usually abbreviate it) ... If you really
want to annoy a local (including my other half) pronounce the second half
of the nearby Ashton Keynes as "Keens" (as in Milton) instead of "Canes".

Ah yes, my brother in law who comes from Cirencester sometimes refers to it
as "Ciren".

I've always pronounced Milton Keynes as Keens but I used to know a guy in
his 80s, a very poshly-spoken doctor, who always referred to it as Milton
Canes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middleton_(Milton_Keynes_Village)
says that many centuries ago the name was spelled Middelton Kaynes or Caynes
(13th century) and Milton alias Middelton Gaynes (17th century), so maybe
he's "correct" (if archaic). I'd heard it suggested that the
Milton/Middleton was after the village and the Keynes was after the
economist (who *was* pronounced "Canes") but it looks as if the Keynes part
is *much* older than him and also pre-dates the building of the modern city.

It's interesting how words change their spelling and pronunciation over the
years. At one time "forehead" was pronounced "forrid" and "waistcoat" was
pronounced "weskit", whereas these pronunciations are regarded as very
affected and old-fashioned nowadays. It's interesting that "bury", both as
the placename in Lancashire and the verb meaning to inter, is pronounced
"berry" rather than "bury".

Brighton used to be spelled Brighthelmstone which may have been pronounced
Brighton, and Wraysbury (Berkshire) used to be Wyrardisbury. Trottiscliffe
(Kent?) is pronounced Troseley and this has started to become an alternative
spelling of the name, especially for a nearby county park.

Kent seems to have a lot of perverse pronuciations: Wrotham and Meopham are
"root'm" and "mep'm". Mind you, "-ham" places are always a problem when
preceded by an s, t or p - is Masham (North Yorkshire) "mash'm" or
"mass'm" - it's definitely the latter, though my wife always pronounces the
breed of sheep from there as "mazz'm".

I wonder whether over time there is a tendency to alter either spelling or
pronunciation or words an placenames so the two match.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Ireland_with_counterintuitive_pronunciations
is good for a laugh - I'd no idea there were so many of them!

 

[Bob Henson]

I wonder whether over time there is a tendency to alter either spelling or
pronunciation or words an placenames so the two match.

Bristol is the best example of that perhaps. Bristol, originally Saxon
Brycgstow, was then shown on old maps as Bristowe. However, the weird
Bristolian accent adds the letter "L" to the end of anything ending in an
"a" or "o" sound - so the Bristolians transmogrified it to Bristol - more
often than not these days, it is just pronounced "Bristle".

An old Bristol tale tells of the man with three daughters Idal, Eval and
Normal. I don't know about that, but they still drive their Fiestals and
Astrals "down Asdal's" to do the shopping.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

You know you're old when your partner says "come upstairs and make love"
and you know you can't do both.

 

[NY]

Bristol is the best example of that perhaps. Bristol, originally Saxon
Brycgstow, was then shown on old maps as Bristowe. However, the weird
Bristolian accent adds the letter "L" to the end of anything ending in an
"a" or "o" sound - so the Bristolians transmogrified it to Bristol - more
often than not these days, it is just pronounced "Bristle".

An old Bristol tale tells of the man with three daughters Idal, Eval and
Normal. I don't know about that, but they still drive their Fiestals and
Astrals "down Asdal's" to do the shopping.

I ought to have remembered that since I was at university at Bristol. The
porter in my hall of residence was a real Bristle man through and through.
When he got fed up with people taking the piss out of his accent, he
produced a humorous book entitled "Krek Waiters Peak Bristle" and said "Ere,
learn that, then you can talk like me tool". He became known as "the talking
tool" after that

It's interesting that "Bristle" is brimming over with Ls because the
so-called Cockney accent (though it applies to more than just the Bow Bells
area of London) avoids them as much as possible - hence "a bott-w of miwk".