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C

Char Jackson

HaRASS versus HARRass and CONtroVERsy versus ConTROVersy !

I can see a logic in CONtroVERsy, since it is then the same as the adjective
controversial, but HaRASS just makes me think of Frank Spencer in Some
Mothers Do Have Them.
I once saw a British guy on a US talk show who referred to 'vitamins' by
pronouncing the first syllable so that it rhymes with 'kit' rather than
'kite'. He did it repeatedly and with a straight face, so I assumed he was
serious. I don't know for sure, though.
 
C

Char Jackson

Physicists always pronounced gigabyte as an affricate, not as a stop,
i.e as in giant, not as in golf.

At least they used to. The programmers might have corrupted them in
these latter days.
I've only heard the hard g version in my lifetime, which is only since the
1960's. Does latter days refer to a period before that? ;-)
 
C

choro

I once saw a British guy on a US talk show who referred to 'vitamins' by
pronouncing the first syllable so that it rhymes with 'kit' rather than
'kite'. He did it repeatedly and with a straight face, so I assumed he was
serious. I don't know for sure, though.
How do you read the latin letter i? You don't know?! Then find out!!! It
is pronounced as in "Kit". And Latin is more or less a phonetic
language. Hence Vitamin is pronounced exactly the same as you see it.
But then you don't know the phonetic alphabet, do you?--
choro
*****
 
J

John Williamson

Char said:
I once saw a British guy on a US talk show who referred to 'vitamins' by
pronouncing the first syllable so that it rhymes with 'kit' rather than
'kite'. He did it repeatedly and with a straight face, so I assumed he was
serious. I don't know for sure, though.
It is the accepted pronunciation on this side of the pond. Your
pronunciation sounds redally strange to our ears.

Ours is also more correct phonetically, as there is nothing in the word
to cause the "i" sound to lengthen, so it should be pronounced as a
short "i" as in kit.
 
C

choro

It is the accepted pronunciation on this side of the pond. Your
pronunciation sounds redally strange to our ears.

Ours is also more correct phonetically, as there is nothing in the word
to cause the "i" sound to lengthen, so it should be pronounced as a
short "i" as in kit.
The 'i' in Vitamin is from the Latin Vita meaning life and in Latin the
letter 'i' is always pronounced as in 'kit' --
choro
*****
 
T

Tim Slattery

Char Jackson said:
I once saw a British guy on a US talk show who referred to 'vitamins' by
pronouncing the first syllable so that it rhymes with 'kit' rather than
'kite'. He did it repeatedly and with a straight face, so I assumed he was
serious. I don't know for sure, though.
That's how they pronounce it over there. As you've seen in the other
posts, they have good reasons for that.

But they don't always. last night I was watching a British show called
"Dalziel and Pasco". They are police officers. But the first name
seems to be pronounced "Dee-Ell", as if you were just pronouncing the
two letters DL. What happened to the other letters?

The best known example (this side of the pond, anyway) is
Worcestershire, which is pronounced "Worstershire". Then there's the
surname Cholmondley, which is pronounced "Chumley". Reading Martha
Grime's books, one of the characters has a butler name Ruthven. Only
it's pronounced "Riven". What?
 
W

Wolf K

On 2013-08-22 1:49 AM, choro wrote:
[...]
How do you read the latin letter i? You don't know?! Then find out!!! It
is pronounced as in "Kit". And Latin is more or less a phonetic
language. Hence Vitamin is pronounced exactly the same as you see it.
But then you don't know the phonetic alphabet, do you?--
choro
All alphabets are phonetic. English writing (_not_ the language,
please!), uses several different phonetic systems, and inconsistently at
that. The reason is that when printing came to Gt Britain, the language
was undergoing a "vowel shift". Printing froze spelling for the earlier
vowels values, which were those of Latin (mostly). But the _language_
changed, and the spelling didn't. We've also imported a lot of foreign
words with their foreign spellings, but have usually adapted them to our
sound system. Hence our wonderful mishmash.

Have a cool on (it's gonna be in the low 30s Celsius here today),
 
W

Wolf K

That's how they pronounce it over there. As you've seen in the other
posts, they have good reasons for that.

But they don't always. last night I was watching a British show called
"Dalziel and Pasco". They are police officers. But the first name
seems to be pronounced "Dee-Ell", as if you were just pronouncing the
two letters DL. What happened to the other letters?

The best known example (this side of the pond, anyway) is
Worcestershire, which is pronounced "Worstershire". Then there's the
surname Cholmondley, which is pronounced "Chumley". Reading Martha
Grime's books, one of the characters has a butler name Ruthven. Only
it's pronounced "Riven". What?
More like "wustershuh", actually. And try Cirencester, pron.
"sissestuh". Warwick is "worrick". Leamington is "lemmingtun", but the
citizens are no more lemming-like than anywhere else.

It's a good thing English is spelt as she is. If we tried truly phonetic
spelling, we'd be arguing about how to spell the words, never mind how
to say them.

Have a cool one,
 
C

choro

On 2013-08-22 1:49 AM, choro wrote:
[...]
How do you read the latin letter i? You don't know?! Then find out!!! It
is pronounced as in "Kit". And Latin is more or less a phonetic
language. Hence Vitamin is pronounced exactly the same as you see it.
But then you don't know the phonetic alphabet, do you?--
choro
All alphabets are phonetic. English writing (_not_ the language,
please!), uses several different phonetic systems, and inconsistently at
that. The reason is that when printing came to Gt Britain, the language
was undergoing a "vowel shift". Printing froze spelling for the earlier
vowels values, which were those of Latin (mostly). But the _language_
changed, and the spelling didn't. We've also imported a lot of foreign
words with their foreign spellings, but have usually adapted them to our
sound system. Hence our wonderful mishmash.

Have a cool on (it's gonna be in the low 30s Celsius here today),
British alphabet phonetic? You must be joking, sir!And it uses the
Latin alphabet which it then continues to mess up and not 'several
phonetic systems' as you claim.

English does use several different phonetic systems, and
*inconsistently* (my emphasis) at that, as you claim which is why it is
such a 'wonderful mishmash'. But how on earth does this 'different sound
systems' tally with your claim that all alphabets are phonetic?

Or are you claiming that far eastern languages such as chinese and
Japanese are also written in phonetic alphabets?

True, English is an amalgam of several European languages + the original
English language of course. Not that this is a bad thing in itself. In
fact it makes the language extremely flexible. You are right on one
point about English being a 'wonderful mishmash!. But that's about it.

And BTW, I gather the weather in the UK is gona be just touching the
mid-20s all this week. Where did you get the 'low 30s Celcius' from?
 
C

choro

That's how they pronounce it over there. As you've seen in the other
posts, they have good reasons for that.

But they don't always. last night I was watching a British show called
"Dalziel and Pasco". They are police officers. But the first name
seems to be pronounced "Dee-Ell", as if you were just pronouncing the
two letters DL. What happened to the other letters?

The best known example (this side of the pond, anyway) is
Worcestershire, which is pronounced "Worstershire". Then there's the
surname Cholmondley, which is pronounced "Chumley". Reading Martha
Grime's books, one of the characters has a butler name Ruthven. Only
it's pronounced "Riven". What?
But I thought Worcester was pronounced Wooster with a long and
emphasized WOO!!! Or do they WOO roosters there?

There are some funny people in this world, I tell ya!
 
W

Wolf K

[...] > Latin alphabet which it then continues to mess up and not 'several
phonetic systems' as you claim.
I taught the history of English, starting with Anglo-Saxon. Trust me, I
know whereof I speak. English spelling is pretty consistently phonetic
by origin, with the usual quota of exceptions. If you know something of
the source language, you will have much less trouble spelling than if
you don't. You'll also have much less trouble figuring out what the word
means, but that's another issue.

Granted, considering how badly spelling is taught in English speaking
schools, it's amazing English speakers spell as well as they do. Eg,
crap about "long a" and "short a", when the two sounds labelled thus are
not long/short versions of each other. The long a is heard in "father",
the short one in "cat". Anyone who thinks otherwise has been thoroughly
corrupted by bad teaching.

The problem with English spelling is that the mapping of phonemes onto
onto graphemes is multiple in both directions. All the phonemes (sounds)
except one map onto two or more graphemes (a sign or group of signs
standing for a sound); and the vast majority of graphemes map onto two
or more phonemes. The only sensible way to teach spelling is not to
start with letters, but with sounds. BTW, there's a word (and its
derivatives) whose spelling omits a phoneme.

I once taught a very bad speller how to spell by starting with
fundamentals: the sounds of English. For each sound we looked at all the
ways it is spelled. Eg, how many ways is /sh/ spelled? (BTW, <sh> is not
the most common one). She ended up being an above average speller, which
convinced me to help all my classes by introducing the phoneme/grapheme
concept, and teaching a handful of representative examples.
English does use several different phonetic systems, and *inconsistently* (my emphasis)
at that, as you claim which is why it is such a 'wonderful mishmash'.
But how on earth does this 'different sound systems' tally with your claim
that all alphabets are phonetic?
Because that's what alphabets do: they represent sounds.

Actually, all writing systems are phonetic, but in different ways. Eg,
Chinese writing consists of a (large but manageable) group of basic
signs, such as the one for "man/human", plus an enormous group of
complex signs. Each complex sign consists of two parts, one that
suggests the meaning (by a kind of visual pun), plus one of the basic
signs that indicates the pronunciation. This is what enables people to
read signs that are no longer used. Context of course also offers clues
to meaning, but that's another (and IMO crucial) question.

Egyptian hieroglyphics and Mayan glyphs are constructed the same way.
The Egyptians later developed a simpler system, a combination of
syllabics and alphabetic signs. The Phoenicians took that system,
simplified it further, and invented the one sound = one sign alphabet.
Almost all known alphabets are derived from theirs. Alpha, beta are the
Greek versions of the Phoenician words that translated the names of the
Egyptian signs, which were in turn simplifications of pictures
representing objects whose names began with that sound.

Syllabics are strictly phonetic, but the signs represent combinations of
sounds, not single sounds.
And BTW, I gather the weather in the UK is gona be just touching the mid-20s
all this week. Where did you get the 'low 30s Celcius' from?
I live in Mid-northern Ontario. I use British spellings (mostly) because
I prefer them. Canadian spelling is a mishmash of US and British.


HTH
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I've only heard the hard g version in my lifetime, which is only since the
1960's. Does latter days refer to a period before that? ;-)
Looks like :)
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Looks like :)
Oops. I just realized you got it backwards. Latter means later, so it
means the corruption belongs to your time rather than to mine.

Or something...
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

And Latin is more or less a phonetic language.
Latin is *not* a phonetic language; like all languages, Latin is a
*phonemic* language.

OTOH, Latin's *writing scheme* was reasonably phonetic, at least until
the language began to change faster than the writing did.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

On 2013-08-22 1:49 AM, choro wrote:
[...]
How do you read the latin letter i? You don't know?! Then find out!!! It
is pronounced as in "Kit". And Latin is more or less a phonetic
language. Hence Vitamin is pronounced exactly the same as you see it.
But then you don't know the phonetic alphabet, do you?--
choro
All alphabets are phonetic. English writing (_not_ the language,
please!), uses several different phonetic systems, and inconsistently at
that. The reason is that when printing came to Gt Britain, the language
was undergoing a "vowel shift". Printing froze spelling for the earlier
vowels values, which were those of Latin (mostly). But the _language_
changed, and the spelling didn't. We've also imported a lot of foreign
words with their foreign spellings, but have usually adapted them to our
sound system. Hence our wonderful mishmash.

Have a cool on (it's gonna be in the low 30s Celsius here today),
My apologies, Wolf - I should have read your informative post before
posting my terse version; then I would have seen that I didn't need to
say *anything* :)
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

[...] > Latin alphabet which it then continues to mess up and not 'several
phonetic systems' as you claim.
I taught the history of English, starting with Anglo-Saxon. Trust me, I
know whereof I speak. English spelling is pretty consistently phonetic
by origin, with the usual quota of exceptions. If you know something of
the source language, you will have much less trouble spelling than if
you don't. You'll also have much less trouble figuring out what the word
means, but that's another issue.

Granted, considering how badly spelling is taught in English speaking
schools, it's amazing English speakers spell as well as they do. Eg,
crap about "long a" and "short a", when the two sounds labelled thus are
not long/short versions of each other. The long a is heard in "father",
the short one in "cat". Anyone who thinks otherwise has been thoroughly
corrupted by bad teaching.

The problem with English spelling is that the mapping of phonemes onto
onto graphemes is multiple in both directions. All the phonemes (sounds)
except one map onto two or more graphemes (a sign or group of signs
standing for a sound); and the vast majority of graphemes map onto two
or more phonemes. The only sensible way to teach spelling is not to
start with letters, but with sounds. BTW, there's a word (and its
derivatives) whose spelling omits a phoneme.

I once taught a very bad speller how to spell by starting with
fundamentals: the sounds of English. For each sound we looked at all the
ways it is spelled. Eg, how many ways is /sh/ spelled? (BTW, <sh> is not
the most common one). She ended up being an above average speller, which
convinced me to help all my classes by introducing the phoneme/grapheme
concept, and teaching a handful of representative examples.
English does use several different phonetic systems, and *inconsistently* (my emphasis)
at that, as you claim which is why it is such a 'wonderful mishmash'.
But how on earth does this 'different sound systems' tally with your claim
that all alphabets are phonetic?
Because that's what alphabets do: they represent sounds.

Actually, all writing systems are phonetic, but in different ways. Eg,
Chinese writing consists of a (large but manageable) group of basic
signs, such as the one for "man/human", plus an enormous group of
complex signs. Each complex sign consists of two parts, one that
suggests the meaning (by a kind of visual pun), plus one of the basic
signs that indicates the pronunciation. This is what enables people to
read signs that are no longer used. Context of course also offers clues
to meaning, but that's another (and IMO crucial) question.

Egyptian hieroglyphics and Mayan glyphs are constructed the same way.
The Egyptians later developed a simpler system, a combination of
syllabics and alphabetic signs. The Phoenicians took that system,
simplified it further, and invented the one sound = one sign alphabet.
Almost all known alphabets are derived from theirs. Alpha, beta are the
Greek versions of the Phoenician words that translated the names of the
Egyptian signs, which were in turn simplifications of pictures
representing objects whose names began with that sound.

Syllabics are strictly phonetic, but the signs represent combinations of
sounds, not single sounds.
And BTW, I gather the weather in the UK is gona be just touching the mid-20s
all this week. Where did you get the 'low 30s Celcius' from?
I live in Mid-northern Ontario. I use British spellings (mostly) because
I prefer them. Canadian spelling is a mishmash of US and British.

HTH
This post gets my vote for best linguistic lesson ever in
alt.windows7.general !

Including any of mine.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

The 'i' in Vitamin is from the Latin Vita meaning life and in Latin the
letter 'i' is always pronounced as in 'kit' --
I guess most of French, and many English words as well, will have to
change their pronunciations.

Or maybe we could just admit that we are no longer speaking Latin, once
Mass is over.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

It's a good thing English is spelt as she is. If we tried truly phonetic
spelling, we'd be arguing about how to spell the words, never mind how
to say them.
That's true just within this household, and we're both US-born :)

That problem, of course, is why I thought GB Shaw was crazy to think we
could create a phonetic writing scheme for English.

Well, we could, I guess, if someone devised a scheme where each grapheme
represented all the variations over all accents unequivocally over all
phonemes, and unequivocally in the other direction as well. Not very
likely...

We do pretty well with the current mish-mash. Or at least I do :)
 
I

Ian Jackson

choro <[email protected]> said:
The 'i' in Vitamin is from the Latin Vita meaning life and in Latin the
letter 'i' is always pronounced as in 'kit' --
choro
Not in the Latin I learned, where "vita" is 'veet-a'. "I" is generally
'ee' in languages which are directly of Latin in origin (certainly
Italian and Spanish), and this is one thing that speakers of those
languages seem to find impossible to 'correct' when they are speaking
English (no matter how fluent they may be).
 

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