Office 2007 strange prob.

A

Alex Clayton

Char Jackson said:
Didn't he say earlier that he has something like 240 GB to back up?
That would be over 50 DVD's, or nearly 650 CD's, or a single external
hard drive. Yikes.
Yes that is what the program said when I was playing with it. I am guessing
a lot of that would be the DVD's that are on here that have not been watched
yet. I guess I could dump them since they are backed up then do the image,
but since it will do it with a USB drive I figure that sounds easier. I took
a quick look at Amazon and 500 Gig are around $60.00. Amazing how these have
dropped in price. will have to get one of the books Gene mentioned at the
same time. Will tell the O/H she can give them too me for Christmas. <G>
 
A

Alex Clayton

R. C. White said:
??Hi, Alex.

Let me echo and amplify Gene's advice. My standard sermon goes something
like this:

Buy a good book and don't just spend some time reading it. INVEST more
time
in studying it! What you learn will pay big dividends now - and for as
long
as you continue to use computers, which just might be for the rest of your
life.

Spend the time (and money) now, and enjoy the dividends for the rest of
your life.
snip
End of sermon. ;^}

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-9/30/10)
Windows Live Mail Version 2011 (Build 15.4.3504.1109) in Win7 Ultimate x64
SP1 RC
I know you are right, and I will certainly be using computers for the rest
of my life.
I know myself well enough to know I will also never be a pro at this. I
should invest more time in it, but it just does not hold my interest, too
many other things on the plate all the time.
I decided to take some time off work a while ago to catch up and often
wonder how I had time to go to work. <G> Doctors told me about 15 years ago
not to make any long term plans and they are still not quite sure why I am
still on this side of the soil. Because of that I take a "different"
approach to life and what I spend my time doing. Decided to go back to
school for a while and am having a lot of fun with it. One of the classes I
took was with computers and I did get a hell of a lot out of it but I can
see I could easily make that a full time thing if I really wanted to. I love
the PC and of course get pissed off fast when something will suddenly not
work, but it is of course my own fault that I have not spent the time to
learn more. I just don't see it happening anytime soon though, too many
higher priorities.
After all that's what I love about Usenet. When I get frustrated I can just
ask for help here and even though it may take a while someone always seems
to have the right answer. <VBG>
 
A

Alex Clayton

Stan Brown said:
IIRC, the change went in the other direction. Doesn't Windows 7 now
create a restore point automatically before most software installs?
Now that you mentioned that it did ring a bell. I seem to remember oft
seeing the message "creating a restore point" pop up during the install of
new software. I just opened the system restore on this again to check and
after clicking the show more restore points the oldest one it shows is
11/14/10 again. I don't know if I have something set wrong or am doing
something to remove them, but I know it's been almost a year since I last
formatted this machine????
 
C

Char Jackson

Yes that is what the program said when I was playing with it. I am guessing
a lot of that would be the DVD's that are on here that have not been watched
yet. I guess I could dump them since they are backed up then do the image,
but since it will do it with a USB drive I figure that sounds easier. I took
a quick look at Amazon and 500 Gig are around $60.00. Amazing how these have
dropped in price. will have to get one of the books Gene mentioned at the
same time. Will tell the O/H she can give them too me for Christmas. <G>
Assuming you decide to back up the full 240GB, you should note that a
500GB drive will only hold a single backup of your data. (A 500 GB
drive holds about 465 GB of data.) Therefore, I would encourage you to
get the biggest drive you can afford so you can store multiple
backups. A 2 TB drive (over 1800 GB of storage) costs less than twice
the price you found for a 500 GB.
 
C

Char Jackson

I do that, and then once a month I burn the backups to DVD and stash
them in a drawer at work. Offsite storage of backups is not just for
businesses.
How many DVD's does it take to store a single backup? We each have our
own threshold of pain, but in my case if it takes more than one I'm
simply not willing to go through the hassle. It takes significantly
longer to burn a DVD than to write data to a hard drive, and the time
quickly gets out of control as the size of the backup job increases.
 
A

Alex Clayton

Char Jackson said:
Assuming you decide to back up the full 240GB, you should note that a
500GB drive will only hold a single backup of your data. (A 500 GB
drive holds about 465 GB of data.) Therefore, I would encourage you to
get the biggest drive you can afford so you can store multiple
backups. A 2 TB drive (over 1800 GB of storage) costs less than twice
the price you found for a 500 GB.
OK, but maybe I am missing something here. I can get any size I want but I
was thinking the whole point of this kind of back up is in case I have to
format this I can just put it back to how it is the day I back it up instead
of taking it back to factory original?
If I can back it up to where it is now, so that if I re do it I don't have
to go back to Vista, then go to W-7 again that's great. If it lasts another
year or so I guess I could delete the old back up and do it again assuming
by then I have made some more changes I do not want to have to re do?
If you mean things like files pictures and what not that is all backed up
daily so I an not worried about losing any of that, just want to make it
less time consuming if I FUBAR this and want to just start over.
I just looked again at Amazon and they have a 2 TB for $109.00. Right now
I have an 80 GIG in the safe with "important" stuff on it and a WD 100 Gig
and WD 500 Gig. I paid as much for each of them over time as the 2TB one is
now so getting the 2TB is no big deal if I have use for it. Hell for the
price of both of our Carbonite subs for one year I could buy the 2 TB one.
This would work for me but Wife would be sure to lose something next time I
had to format her machine as I have never been able to get her to back up
stuff and gave up on the battle.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

OK, but maybe I am missing something here. I can get any size I want but I
was thinking the whole point of this kind of back up is in case I have to
format this I can just put it back to how it is the day I back it up instead
of taking it back to factory original?
If I can back it up to where it is now, so that if I re do it I don't have
to go back to Vista, then go to W-7 again that's great. If it lasts another
year or so I guess I could delete the old back up and do it again assuming
by then I have made some more changes I do not want to have to re do?
If you mean things like files pictures and what not that is all backed up
daily so I an not worried about losing any of that, just want to make it
less time consuming if I FUBAR this and want to just start over.
I just looked again at Amazon and they have a 2 TB for $109.00. Right now
I have an 80 GIG in the safe with "important" stuff on it and a WD 100 Gig
and WD 500 Gig. I paid as much for each of them over time as the 2TB one is
now so getting the 2TB is no big deal if I have use for it. Hell for the
price of both of our Carbonite subs for one year I could buy the 2 TB one.
This would work for me but Wife would be sure to lose something next time I
had to format her machine as I have never been able to get her to back up
stuff and gave up on the battle.
I can't quite figure out your question, so I will wing it and just give
you a couple of ideas, including a partial refutation of what Char
Jackson said.

1. With a program like Acronis or Macrium Reflect, the backup is:
a. Compressed a bit, so it's smaller than the original file system.
b. Later backups (if you chose "incremental") add only changed data to
the current backup, so they are quick and small.
c. You can even, if you choose, restore a file or the system from an
earlier backup rather than being able to use only the image from the
latest backup.
d. Tools in those backup programs let you look at the backed-up file
system in Windows Explorer. They also let you look at any of the earlier
backups.

2. I make my second backup on a second drive, so that if one drive
fails, the other is still good (at least, if Murphy is on vacation!) -
so the capacity of the backup drives is not an issue. They needn't be
twice the size of the original.

3. Both of the above programs let you make a boot CD. This lets you
restore to the original hard drive (or a replacement hard drive) in the
computer from the external drive even when the drive in the computer
won't boot (e.g., a corrupted or virus-ridden drive or a new drive)

4. When you restore from a backup, you choose which backup set (which
date) to restore, and your computer becomes what it was on that date. No
data or software is lost, you return to exactly where you were when you
backed up. Much better than a system recovery to the new-from-factory
condition!

HTH,
Gino
 
X

XS11E

Gene E. Bloch said:
I can't quite figure out your question, so I will wing it and just
give you a couple of ideas, including a partial refutation of what
Char Jackson said.

1. With a program like Acronis or Macrium Reflect, the backup is:
a. Compressed a bit, so it's smaller than the original file
system. b. Later backups (if you chose "incremental") add only
changed data to the current backup, so they are quick and small.
Minor point, the free versions from Western Digital or Seagate/Maxtor
will not do incremental backups. I don't find this to be a problem, I
create an image of the bare install and then a new image as I get the
PC setup. Regularly I delete the later image and create a new one so I
alway have the 'bare' image (win7 installed and configured to my wants,
no software added) and a current image.
 
X

XS11E

Stan Brown said:
IIRC, the change went in the other direction. Doesn't Windows 7
now create a restore point automatically before most software
installs?
Yes but there are things that will delete restore points, Acronis is
one of them.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I think it's a case of Alex is mixing up the 2 kinds of backups being
discussed... An image backup of the system in a preferred state (like after
you've opened the box, installed the couple of "must have" applications,
customized the desktop, etc...) and before filling it with data for putting
it back to your desired out of the box state vs. data backups.
The initial image backup, what I would use Acronis for (actually I use
ImageX, but same idea) could be stored on a local server, burned to disk,
put on spouse's computer (and their stored on yours), etc... Don't care
about saving it in case of theft or fire as it wouldn't be applicable to
your new machine once back on your feet.
I make two kinds of backups, an image backup (Macrium Reflect) and a
clone backup (Casper).

I don't see the point of your "2 kinds of backups". I backup the whole
drive every time with the above programs. I let both programs' ability
to make an incremental backup take care of the data management.

If I need to restore a particular file, it's available on both disks. If
I want to restore an earlier version of the file, I can use the Macrium
image.

If I need to recreate my boot disk, either backup will work fine.
Moreover, it recreates a *recent* version of my system. The problem with
what you suggest is that you would get a version close to the out-of-box
version, requiring you to reinstall all the programs you installed
later.

And if I get a new machine, what I need for it - the data, the virtual
machine's hard drive file, whatever, is there too. There's even an image
of the desktop and a list of all the installed programs (in the Program
Files directories) to help me figure out what I want to reinstall. And
what I want to *not* reinstall, come to think of it.

And I'm not sure my confusion is a case of Alex mixing something up. I
think he just phrased his concerns in a way that didn't match my
individual[1] brainwave patterns :)

[1] The word "idiot" relates to a Greek word meaning "individual" (I'm
taking some license here), so you can draw your own conclusions about
me :)
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Minor point, the free versions from Western Digital or Seagate/Maxtor
will not do incremental backups. I don't find this to be a problem, I
create an image of the bare install and then a new image as I get the
PC setup. Regularly I delete the later image and create a new one so I
alway have the 'bare' image (win7 installed and configured to my wants,
no software added) and a current image.
Thanks, I had forgotten that.

I use a paid version of Macrium, so my advice was rather parochial.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I know myself well enough to know I will also never be a pro at this. I
should invest more time in it, but it just does not hold my interest, too
many other things on the plate all the time.
That's a completely valid approach, of course. It's just that we're such
geeks that we can't understand it.

(You're supposed to laugh now. Really!)
I decided to take some time off work a while ago to catch up and often
wonder how I had time to go to work. <G> Doctors told me about 15 years ago
not to make any long term plans and they are still not quite sure why I am
still on this side of the soil. Because of that I take a "different"
approach to life and what I spend my time doing.
That sounds like a real motivator to me...
 
S

Stan Brown

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 06:25:03 -0500, Stan Brown


How many DVD's does it take to store a single backup?
In my case, three. I agree with what you say about "personal
threshold of pain". For me, this is below the threshold. :)
 
S

Stan Brown

Yes but there are things that will delete restore points, Acronis is
one of them.
Say what? I had no idea, but I've just looked and there are no
restore points earlier than my most recent backup. Holy unexpected
consequences, Batman!
 
A

Alex Clayton

Gene E. Bloch said:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 12:34:40 -0800, Alex Clayton wrote:

It's really better than that. If you backed up a week ago, then you can
restore to what you had a week ago.

In fact with Macrium (the paid version, as XS11E reminded me), if you
had backed up last week and the week before, and you learned that what
you backed up last weeks was already screwed up, you could back up to
the two-week old version. If you always use an incremental backup, that
is.

One comment on the last: I do a full backup, then I do a series of
incremental backups. Eventually, I do a new full backup in a separate
place adn do the incremental there too. I set the original set aside.
When it's time to do yet another full backup, I get rid of the first set
adn backup there. I continue alternating in that fashion.

Confession time: the last paragraph is, in fact, my good intentions. I
don't do it as neatly as I said. Not even close :)
I took a look here:
http://www.macrium.com/features.asp
and it does look like a pretty cool little tool. For $40.00 I think I will
read up on it and give it a try. I noticed it had a free trial to let you
see how you like it. Looks if I am reading it right, like I can have it
exclude stuff I do not want to waste space backing up, like all the DVD's on
here. Right now 195 Gigs of space is used by saved DVD's. I don't need to
back those up, they already are backed up.
 
S

Seth

Gene E. Bloch said:
I make two kinds of backups, an image backup (Macrium Reflect) and a
clone backup (Casper).

I don't see the point of your "2 kinds of backups". I backup the whole
drive every time with the above programs. I let both programs' ability
to make an incremental backup take care of the data management.
I differentiate between the 2 as I don't believe in image backups (to be
able to restore a system to a specific state) once the machine has been
"used". But that's me. I find it to be no big deal to build a system from
scratch and when I do build from scratch, it's 100% clean.

I also don't believe in system restore for more than a temporary fix to get
immediate use of a machine. Once there is time, rebuild is my rule. I look
at things form an Enterprise support perspective with a mobile work force.
Once a machine becomes "questionable" I don't want the user to be away from
the office where the machine may go down again and not be able to generate
income for the firm.
If I need to restore a particular file, it's available on both disks. If
I want to restore an earlier version of the file, I can use the Macrium
image.
Yup, can do that with ImageX as well. Even many years ago that could be
done with Ghost.
If I need to recreate my boot disk, either backup will work fine.
Moreover, it recreates a *recent* version of my system. The problem with
what you suggest is that you would get a version close to the out-of-box
version, requiring you to reinstall all the programs you installed
later.
Yup, that's a big part of why I don't like image backups after a user has
touched the machine. All the crap left over from things being installed,
tried out, uninstalled, upgraded, etc... If I do a rebuild of a machine (or
reload form a "pristine" image), I don't have any "garbage" on it and only
reinstall the most recent version of what I actually use.
 
C

Char Jackson

OK, but maybe I am missing something here. I can get any size I want but I
was thinking the whole point of this kind of back up is in case I have to
I assume when you say "this kind of backup" you mean a full image,
which is similar to a snapshot. Restoring such a backup puts
everything back where it was on the day the backup was created.
format this I can just put it back to how it is the day I back it up instead
of taking it back to factory original?
Exactly, and Gene and several others have done a good job of
explaining that there's real benefit to being able to restore your
computer to a more *recent* state than just the one time you decided
to create a full image backup. That's a general case, though. In your
specific case, things may be different and you would know best. If a
single image is good enough, then more power to you.

This would work for me but Wife would be sure to lose something next time I
had to format her machine as I have never been able to get her to back up
stuff and gave up on the battle.
My wife isn't big on administrative things like backups so I take care
of it for her by using the built-in scheduler within Acronis. I have a
15-drive server hanging on the network, with 14 of those drives being
the 2TB variety. Four drives are reserved for backups. In Acronis, I
set up a rotating schedule so that every week a full system image is
created and saved to one of the dedicated backup drives, in rotation.
I have a similar schedule set up on my own computer. If one of the
backup drives happens to fail, there's a 25% chance that it will
contain the most recent image for a given computer. If I needed to
restore or rebuild one of my computers, I would naturally reach for
the most recent image. To me, restoring an image from a year ago would
be unacceptable, but I see that your requirements are different from
mine, and that's fine.

To keep the backup drives from filling up, I only keep the most recent
4 weekly backups for each computer, plus any backups that were created
during the first week of the month. So if I look now, I will find a
full image from the first week of July, (when I set this up), likewise
an image from the first week of August through November, plus an image
from the next 3 weeks in November, and finally an image created last
weekend from the first week of December.

We do other backups, too. The stuff described above only refers to the
system/boot drive, typically the C:\ drive. I have separate backup
jobs set up for photos, digital music, etc.

Lastly, as Gene pointed out, once you do a full image backup you don't
necessarily have to make more full images. You can opt for incremental
or differential backups, which are much smaller. I don't use those
types myself, but they are a valid choice.
 
C

Char Jackson

I can't quite figure out your question, so I will wing it and just give
you a couple of ideas, including a partial refutation of what Char
Jackson said.

1. With a program like Acronis or Macrium Reflect, the backup is:
a. Compressed a bit, so it's smaller than the original file system.
b. Later backups (if you chose "incremental") add only changed data to
the current backup, so they are quick and small.
c. You can even, if you choose, restore a file or the system from an
earlier backup rather than being able to use only the image from the
latest backup.
d. Tools in those backup programs let you look at the backed-up file
system in Windows Explorer. They also let you look at any of the earlier
backups.

2. I make my second backup on a second drive, so that if one drive
fails, the other is still good (at least, if Murphy is on vacation!) -
so the capacity of the backup drives is not an issue. They needn't be
twice the size of the original.

3. Both of the above programs let you make a boot CD. This lets you
restore to the original hard drive (or a replacement hard drive) in the
computer from the external drive even when the drive in the computer
won't boot (e.g., a corrupted or virus-ridden drive or a new drive)

4. When you restore from a backup, you choose which backup set (which
date) to restore, and your computer becomes what it was on that date. No
data or software is lost, you return to exactly where you were when you
backed up. Much better than a system recovery to the new-from-factory
condition!

HTH,
Gino
No worries, Gene. Thanks for the clarifications. I agree with
everything you've added.
 
C

Char Jackson

That reminds me of why I switched to Macrium...
I have never used System Restore (I make sure it's disabled) so it's
not an issue for me and I get to stay with Acronis. :)
 

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