OEM Windows

[Ken Springer]

I'm currently testing Thunderbird 10.0.2 in Windows 8, and my memory
usage varies between perhaps 88MB and 200MB. At this very instant,
usage is listed as 139.2MB, and I've "refreshed" the groups list in
the two servers I use (to pull as much stuff into RAM as possible).
So I haven't noticed any leak type behavior.

Just an FYI in case you don't follow the Thunderbird areas at Mozilla,
the question of memory usage comes up now and again.

Most of the discussions are over my head, but the simple fact the
issue/question comes up at times, tells me there may be some kind of
issue there.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 10.0.2
Thunderbird 10.0.2
LibreOffice 3.5.0 rc3

 

[Allen Drake]

OEM version which you have can be purchased when you buy or build a new
computer without a pre installed OS.

You only get one serial number that can be registered. If you want it on
another PC you must talk to MS and either get another of them or
purchase if from them.

If you have an OEM disk you can install it and active it by phone by
answering "one" when the recording asks you how many machines you have
this OS installed on. I have done it many times while upgrading the
computer it came on. Over time I have a completely different system
while never having installed it on more then one computer. If that is
against the rules then I am sorry but having answered their question
truthfully they have given me consent and allowed this procedure to be
legit. I have in the past seen others insist on what their option of a
different system was including the replacement of a motherboard. Now
if anyone wants to debate this again then I will stand by and watch
the fun.

 

[Ken Springer]

One of the least common "cars" is the Land Rover, and have you *seen*
the number of ways you can customise one of those? ;-)

I can't afford a Land Rover, why would I look? LOL

But I deliberately mentioned Hardware support, not software support.
Hardware supported under Linux is a subset of hardware supported under
Windows.

Lots, but this may be a two edged sword. Somebody who's running Windows
and the core MS applications can get help from just about anywhere.
Someone running Linux first is almost forced to find someone running the
same distribution. Go from Debian to Ubuntu, and most of the settings
are in a different place, for instance.

True, and one of the things about Linux that certainly has to be
confusing to a new user. But then, common tasks in Windows are in a
different place than they are in OS X. If you are concerned with where
a particular task is in a particular version of Linux, you also have to
include the differences between Windows and OS X also.

When I set up a system for my Mother a while ago, I deliberately set it
up to use XP and Outlook Express for e-mail, because I knew she could
get help from her next door neighbour or the local computer store if
needed. Now, I'd use Windows 7. If I'd set it up using Linux for better
security and crash resistance, I would have been her only support option.

Did you know there's a Linux distro with an interface that looks like XP?

This seems to be turning into yet another Linux v. Windows thread...

It does seem that way. But, IMO, we at least are discussing merits
of each, rather than being fanbois or bashing one OS over another.

<snip>


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 10.0.2
Thunderbird 10.0.2
LibreOffice 3.5.0 rc3

 

[BillW50]

In

Did you know there's a Linux distro with an interface that looks like
XP?

Did you know the reverse is also true? I am running XP right now and I
am using an Aston Ubuntu 10.10 theme (aka desktop).

 

[John Williamson]

On 3/4/12 3:47 AM, John Williamson wrote:

I can't afford a Land Rover, why would I look? LOL

I see what you mean, but mine cost me ninety quid about thirty years
ago. And, on average, three hundred a year in maintenance ever since,
including the cost of the MOT every year. Total cost last year was under
twenty quid a week plus petrol, even allowing for the loan I'm still
paying off for fitting the new chassis in 2008. That clears next year,
so I'll be able to do some more upgrades. I can still get all the
regular service items off the shelf at the local LR shop (*Not* the main
dealer, who gets parts the following day if you're lucky and only to
order), and I've never had to make more than two phone calls to get any
part delivered the following day, as long as I call in the morning.

True, and one of the things about Linux that certainly has to be
confusing to a new user. But then, common tasks in Windows are in a
different place than they are in OS X. If you are concerned with where
a particular task is in a particular version of Linux, you also have to
include the differences between Windows and OS X also.

Which could explain why very few PC users also use an Apple and vice
versa. I've never used one, and after my experiences with iTunes and
Quicktime trying to take over my machines, I doubt that I ever will.

Did you know there's a Linux distro with an interface that looks like XP?

Yes, but it's not sufficiently similar behind the scenery to let her get
help from MS users. In particular, it doesn't use Outlook Express, and
ICBA setting up WINE so she could. I notice that WINE has got a lot
easier to use and more compatible since then, though.

It does seem that way. But, IMO, we at least are discussing merits
of each, rather than being fanbois or bashing one OS over another.

Probably because we've used both systems and know the strengths and
weaknesses of each.

 

[mechanic]

LibreOffice is to be recommended. I have it installed too and
recommend it to others. Actually LibreOffice will do everything
MS Office (Home and Student version) will do and more.

Bill will be along shortly to point out the errors in that view.

 

[Ken Springer]

Which could explain why very few PC users also use an Apple and vice
versa. I've never used one, and after my experiences with iTunes and
Quicktime trying to take over my machines, I doubt that I ever will.

I think, here in the US, part of the disparity between Apple use and PC
use is the cost, and the inability to not be able to see and touch an
Apple due to lack of retail outlets.

Probably because we've used both systems and know the strengths and
weaknesses of each.

I've probably got less than 25 hours of Linux time, I just don't believe
any OS is the be all, end all of operating systems. All of them have
strengths and weaknesses, based on any one user's desires.

For instance, a strength of the old Atari systems that used the Motorola
680x0 chips was the fact the OS is on a chip on the motherboard. No
viruses at all, unless you played a floppy or hard disk game and they
hacked the game itself. Downside, bugs were hard coded to the chip,
difficult to update the OS to fix the bug(s).


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 10.0.2
Thunderbird 10.0.2
LibreOffice 3.5.0 rc3

 

[BillW50]

In

Bill will be along shortly to point out the errors in that view.

No I will let you handle that. Say, I hear that Kingsoft Office is
actually better than Libre. I have it installed, but I haven't dome much
with it yet.

 

[BillW50]

In

For instance, a strength of the old Atari systems that used the
Motorola 680x0 chips was the fact the OS is on a chip on the
motherboard. No viruses at all, unless you played a floppy or hard
disk game and they hacked the game itself. Downside, bugs were hard
coded to the chip, difficult to update the OS to fix the bug(s).

I don't know if you could do this with the Atari, but Commodores you
could clone the ROM to RAM and modify, patch, or whatever you want to
the OS and then run the OS from RAM. You could boot an OS too. GEOS (a
Mac look-alike) was one example.

 

[Ken Blake]

If you have an OEM disk you can install it and active it by phone by
answering "one" when the recording asks you how many machines you have
this OS installed on. I have done it many times while upgrading the
computer it came on. Over time I have a completely different system
while never having installed it on more then one computer. If that is
against the rules then I am sorry but having answered their question
truthfully they have given me consent and allowed this procedure to be
legit. I have in the past seen others insist on what their option of a
different system was including the replacement of a motherboard. Now
if anyone wants to debate this again then I will stand by and watch
the fun.

I don't want to debate it, but doing this is clearly against the
rules.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:

It is certainly *not* a gray area. It is against the licensing terms.
Can you do it and get away with it? Possibly. Undoubtedly some people
have done that.

Can you rob a bank and get away with it? Possibly. Undoubtedly some
people have done that. Does that mean the law against doing it is a
gray area?

Robbing a bank is certainly a bigger crime than violating the terms of
a Windows license, but that doesn't make one of them a gray area and
the other not.

 

[Ken Springer]

In

I don't know if you could do this with the Atari, but Commodores you
could clone the ROM to RAM and modify, patch, or whatever you want to
the OS and then run the OS from RAM. You could boot an OS too. GEOS (a
Mac look-alike) was one example.

GEOS rings a bell, but I don't remember if that was for the 6509 in the
8 bit machines, or 680x0 ST/TT machines.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 10.0.2
Thunderbird 10.0.2
LibreOffice 3.5.0 rc3

 

[Joerg Jaeger]

I think, here in the US, part of the disparity between Apple use and PC
use is the cost, and the inability to not be able to see and touch an
Apple due to lack of retail outlets.



I've probably got less than 25 hours of Linux time, I just don't believe
any OS is the be all, end all of operating systems. All of them have
strengths and weaknesses, based on any one user's desires.

For instance, a strength of the old Atari systems that used the Motorola
680x0 chips was the fact the OS is on a chip on the motherboard. No
viruses at all, unless you played a floppy or hard disk game and they
hacked the game itself. Downside, bugs were hard coded to the chip,
difficult to update the OS to fix the bug(s).

As i remember my old A500 got easily viruses... mostly through swapping
of course.
The systems at the time did not had security in mind at all and no
multiple user accounts.
Even though i use Windows it does have security problems.

But those old days, there was no OEM too. Right now i use both Windows
and Linux. I am happy the way i set it up and if one fails i always have
the other.

 

[Char Jackson]

GEOS rings a bell, but I don't remember if that was for the 6509 in the
8 bit machines, or 680x0 ST/TT machines.

I'm too lazy to Google, but I remember the 6809 Motorola chip and 6502
(VIC-20) and 6510 (C-64) MOS Technology chips, but I don't remember a
6509 chip.

Getting over my laziness, I see that there really was such a beast,
but it was never popular or widely deployed.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6509>

The first programming language I really learned, other than some
simple 'Hello World' things in Commodore BASIC, was 6510 Assembly.
That was a very straightforward language, very easy to program in.

 

[Joerg Jaeger]

Just like to say that i am very please to have this civil conversation here.
It did help me and i appreciate the different input. Glad i came here.

 

[Allen Drake]

I don't want to debate it, but doing this is clearly against the
rules.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:

It is certainly *not* a gray area. It is against the licensing terms.
Can you do it and get away with it? Possibly. Undoubtedly some people
have done that.

Can you rob a bank and get away with it? Possibly. Undoubtedly some
people have done that. Does that mean the law against doing it is a
gray area?

Robbing a bank is certainly a bigger crime than violating the terms of
a Windows license, but that doesn't make one of them a gray area and
the other not.

I don't think I am robbing anyone by maybe stretching the limits.
Like I posted, I started out with one machine and gradually replaced
piece by piece having to active almost every time. I know have a new
system through the process of upgrading. At what point did I rob
someone in the upgrade process. As I also stated others have tried to
tell me by a simple replacement of a mother board that was the point I
crossed the line. Others have disagreed with this opinion. Where
specifically in the EUA does is specify any particular component? I
also stated that I have only one system installation as answered the
activation question correctly. The voice said something to the effect
of "let me check" when it was decided I had passed the test I was
granted the validation.

You don't want to debate. Only insist you are correct and insinuate I
have robbed someone.

Good luck with that.

 

[Paul]

Just an FYI in case you don't follow the Thunderbird areas at Mozilla,
the question of memory usage comes up now and again.

Most of the discussions are over my head, but the simple fact the
issue/question comes up at times, tells me there may be some kind of
issue there.

I found a page yesterday, describing how to "debug" a memory leak
problem with Thunderbird, and some of their issues, are with features
I don't use.

What was interesting, is a banner appears at the bottom of TB 10.0.2,
asking for permission to report back to Mozilla, tool memory usage. So
they now have a way to actively monitor what customers are seeing.
You have to click the permission button, for the tool to be able to
"call home".

They're concerned enough about it, to use a Microsoft approach, of
logging field data.

Paul

 

[Seth]

You are paying extra for MS support! They give no support for OEM
versions. You are on your own. No, sir! If I buy something it is mine even
if just the use of it and I should be able to install it on any ONE
computer as I desire.
-- choro

But you're not buying the "product" per se, you are buying merely a license
to use said product under the terms and conditions of the owner of the
product. The owner of the product is Microsoft. If one doesn't like the
terms set forth by the owner of the product one doesn't buy a license for
it.

It's not buying a physical\tangible item. It's more akin to buying a
membership to a club. There are different levels with different terms. The
different levels of membership entitle you to different services.

 

[choro]

But you're not buying the "product" per se, you are buying merely a
license to use said product under the terms and conditions of the owner
of the product. The owner of the product is Microsoft. If one doesn't
like the terms set forth by the owner of the product one doesn't buy a
license for it.

It's not buying a physical\tangible item. It's more akin to buying a
membership to a club. There are different levels with different terms.
The different levels of membership entitle you to different services.

I have a policy of not entering into lengthy arguments with nincompoops!
-- choro

 

[Ken Blake]

I don't think I am robbing anyone by maybe stretching the limits.
Like I posted, I started out with one machine and gradually replaced
piece by piece having to active almost every time. I know have a new
system through the process of upgrading. At what point did I rob
someone in the upgrade process. As I also stated others have tried to
tell me by a simple replacement of a mother board that was the point I
crossed the line. Others have disagreed with this opinion. Where
specifically in the EUA does is specify any particular component?

The EULA is not at all specific, and doesn't define what a new machine
is. Is that a weakness of the EULA? Absolutely!

But what Microsoft's position is on this is clear. As far as they are
concerned, you are violating the EULA. So what would happen if you
were sued by Microsoft for violating the EULA and had to defend your
position in court? Who would win? I certainly don't know for sure, but
if I were a betting man, I'd bet on Microsoft.

also stated that I have only one system installation as answered the
activation question correctly. The voice said something to the effect
of "let me check" when it was decided I had passed the test I was
granted the validation.

You don't want to debate. Only insist you are correct and insinuate I
have robbed someone.

I said nothing about your robbing anyone. I talked about violating the
EULA. It's a civil offense, not a criminal one.

This discussion has gone on too long, as far as I'm concerned, and is
approaching a debate, which, as I said, I don't want to do. So this is
my last post on the subject.

I hope you don't get caught doing what you do.

 

[Allen Drake]

The EULA is not at all specific, and doesn't define what a new machine
is. Is that a weakness of the EULA? Absolutely!

But what Microsoft's position is on this is clear. As far as they are
concerned, you are violating the EULA. So what would happen if you
were sued by Microsoft for violating the EULA and had to defend your
position in court? Who would win? I certainly don't know for sure, but
if I were a betting man, I'd bet on Microsoft.




I said nothing about your robbing anyone. I talked about violating the
EULA. It's a civil offense, not a criminal one.

This discussion has gone on too long, as far as I'm concerned, and is
approaching a debate, which, as I said, I don't want to do. So this is
my last post on the subject.

I hope you don't get caught doing what you do.

You clearly posted your sideways reference to robbing, did you not?

SIOW you got nothing. Your own statement says "unclear" so show me
where it says I am violating the EULA. Until then you will remain
clueless. You do bring laughs to this thread with your last statement.
What would I be caught doing? Back up what you say.

I am not surprised you don't want a debate with nothing intelligent
to add.