Live Mail

[XS11E]

I'm only 76 (until July).

I'll turn 77 in June for whatever that's worth?

And I pity folks who use age as their excuse for refusing to learn
new things! Loss of hearing, fading eyesight and memory, and
other problems that come with age are legitimate, but not just age
itself.

The fading eyesight is my major problem, I've had very poor hearing
since my early 20s so I'm used to is and people who know me are used to
1/2 my converstaion consisting of, "What?" (hearing aids actually make
the problem worse!) but I've never had any eye problems until recently.
I find I'm no longer able to do the NY Times Crossword w/o a magnifying
glass as I can't make out the numbers in the grid!

And my eye guy still insists the cataracts aren't bad enough to justify
removal.... but maybe this next exam?

 

[BillW50]

In

On 5/1/12 9:14 AM, BillW50 wrote:

<snip>

Not snipping my meandering reply just made this reply soooooooo long!
LOL

I'd generally disagree with you here, Bill. Just because "you"
(generic you, not BillW50 specifically) don't know anything about a
particular program is no reason *not* to tell the person asking the
question those other programs exist. It's the other person's
responsibility to determine if the other software meets their needs.
Things about a particular program that do not appeal to you may be
something the other person is looking for.

Simply calling one or more programs "crap" simply reflects negatively
on you, especially if the other person discovers they like the
program. And if that happens, what do you think the odds are that
person will pay any attention to any other comment you make?

Or they can ignore me and learn later that the others are indeed crap.
It could go either way you know. I admit my standards are very high, so
that is why I am so dissatisfied with what is out there. It is funny
that I remember readers from the 80's and 90's were so much better than
the readers we have today. So what happened? Where are these programmers
who knew how to write a decent reader years ago?

I used to take recommendations/comments I read online somewhere as
"gospel". I don't anymore. I've learned to simply check those things
out and make my own decisions. And from then on, I had less faith the
source of the information.

I totally agree.

As you can tell from my sig or viewing the message source, I use
Thunderbird. I used to use OE, and Outlook 2003 and 2007.

But I like the idea of one program for both email and newsgroups, and
Outlook 2003 & 2007 doesn't do that natively, IIRC. I did take a look
at Agent before switching to the Mac, and I also found it hard to
figure out. But, I won't tell someone it's crap for at least two
reasons.
One, I didn't stick with it long enough to find out if my initial
impression of the program was correct, for me. It may have worked out
that once I knew more about the program, I may have liked it. And
two, what is right for me is not necessarily right for someone else.

I understand. But those who have been through what the OP is going
through can't help if they keep their mouth shut.

So I tell them of the other programs I know about, but don't denigrate
them by calling them "crap". I may tell them why *I* didn't like it,
but they should try them for themselves and make their own decisions.

Then why does many experts tell somebody don't even bother wasting your
time with XYZ for?

TB is definitely not perfect, and doesn't offer some of the features
you want. But for me, the pluses outweigh the minuses, at least for
the moment. <grin>

I've used Thunderbird for over 6 years and I still use it sometimes
today. But I have to admit, it could be made a lot easier to use (even
for a pro) and it makes mistakes that even a pro won't catch for years.

I will say this, Bill, if you advocate for a feature in a program that
breaks agreed upon standards and/or rules, then you are in the wrong.
What you should be doing is advocating for a change in the standards
and/or rules.

Standards? I have very mixed opinions about standards. Sometimes they
can be a good thing and sometimes they can be a very bad thing.

Anymore, I seriously doubt there are any individuals that are
"experts" in all programs of any type. A user simply needs to do their
own testing, decide for themselves by using the program in a manner
they want to use the program, and never put 100% faith in anything
anyone says. The person making those statements, no matter how
knowledgeable, may not know the one or two crucial answers the user
needs to know.
I'm no technical expert on anything about computers, just used them
since the early '80's. A few months ago, I qualified for free MS tech
support with a problem, and the problem escalated all the way to an
engineering team. After about 3 weeks, they gave up.

But I fixed it! LOL

What I had that they didn't, was user experience with that computer.
After watching them test my computer remotely, collect logs and
reports, and repeat this a few times, I thought about what I'd seen
and said "What if?" Long story short, I changed the network card and
the problem was solved.

So, there is a serious danger to any poster who says such and such is
junk, and is adamant about that.

First, I am so glad you know about you can't even trust the experts and
I say this being an expert on a thing or two. It really ticks me off
whether one is a licensed expert or not, claiming that you have to
listen to them because they are the so-called expert. That is pure crap!
Yes I said it again. ;-)

And speaking about serious danger about somebody calling something as
crap, apparently means something totally different to me than it
apparently does with you. With me, two things happen when I hear
somebody say that:

1) My eyebrows rise

2) My curiosity kicks in. I want them to elaborate on why they think it
is crap. And I automatically won't write them off until I heard them
out.

No, it doesn't. Early Corvairs were "crap", pretty much, but by the
end of the model's run, all issues had been fixed, yet the bad rap
remained. And that didn't seem to matter to some, the Corvair would
always be a piece of crap. Ralph Nader has left me with the
impression he is one of those for whom the Corvair could never be
fixed.
Quoting a 7 year old article, about a version no longer available,
falls into a similar category. At this point, I don't think it will
make any difference what Agent does, you aren't going to like it.

And I've seen MS support folks telling others asking for help to use
an old article that, according to the article, only applies to Win 98,
2000, XP. But it works for Win Vista and 7. In which case, MS should
update the old article with that information. And you can still find
that happening if you simply do a web search on a problem.

Yes exactly.

Don't get me started on the lack of proper documentation, it's one of
my personal peeves, and applies to all new software. Online
documentation is equally bad. Documentation that goes with current
software is just plain.......... crap! <--- LOL, I just couldn't
resist that!

Whether it is easy to figure out how to use something completely
depends on the user. Some find Windows easy to use and understand,
but can't figure a d**n thing out on a Mac. And the reverse is also
true. So that's a bogus argument, IMO.

Oh I believe the mass majority of newsgroup users would agree that OE is
very simple to use. And the number one complaint I hear about OE is that
it is too simple to use and those that use it doesn't know any better.

But that's your personal opinion, Bill, and that's perfectly fine. But
it may not be opinion of a new user. It's wrong to label any software
or product "crap" just because you don't like it. That's a subjective
opinion. Simply say why you don't like that software or product, and
tell the user to try it themselves and make their own decision.

Of course it is my opinion. As I don't speak for everybody or even a
group of people. And of course people are free to make up their own
minds. But what will they learn after it is all said and done? They will
say they didn't like some of the recommended replacements, won't they?

That's always going to happen, regardless of the product. I still miss
some Atari features and it's OS, and I still use a couple of 20+ year
old sound system components because there are no replacements for the
things they do. But it doesn't make the new stuff crap. Just stuff I
don't like.

Why doesn't it make some of the new stuff as crap? I could see some of
the new stuff as crap. And history has proved some new stuff as crap.
And the list of new crap that isn't here yet will be never ending.

 

[Sam Hill]

In

BillW50 wrote:
[biggasnip]

It doesn't take me years to learn how to use a newsreader Sam. Why
would you say something so dumb?

Because with every post, you reinforce that you are incapable of
learning anything new.

'Nuff said.

No it isn't enough said! You started something and you think you can
walk away when it gets too hot in the kitchen? That isn't learning if
you ask me. And I have seen you make one mistake after another because
you make assumptions that aren't based on the truth. And now you are
probably thinking that you bit off too much to chew and now you want to
quit. As for me, I am willing to see what you started to the end and I
am more than willing to learn through the process. But you apparently
are not. So why are you not practicing what you preach?

You keep spewing the same stuff. Why continue? (And I certainly didn't
start it -- you did.)

The only mistake I've made is apparently trying to find out what's wrong
with your thought processes. I've done that; you admitted you're too old
to learn anything new.

It is definitely cool in my kitchen.

 

[BillW50]

In

For the record, I gave a list of alternatives, as well as a link to a
possible fix while still using WLM15.

If the OP were to be interested in a change, my assumption is that
they will look at the web sites of the readers listed and come to
their own decision. Personally, I use TB2, as I have found problems
with later versions. Others find that the later versions are more to
their liking.

I have zero problems with people making an educated choice and picking
to use whatever. It is when they make a choice based by somebody who is
about as clueless as the OP is (no I am not talking about you per se).
That is when I have a problem.

The person supplying the list is only "wasting" the time it takes to
go to the website and look up the capabilities of the programs, and
maybe post another query asking about them. "This newsreader doesn't
seem to let me do "X". Is there a way to do it?" This will invariably
produce several posts either confirming your suspicions or telling
you how to do it, along with at least one recommending that you
install PINE or ELM under Linux and learn how to program them.

I don't know about you, but I have found those feature lists to be not
very telling at all. Also most advertisements are also not very telling
either. But this is often the case when the one who created the feature
list has a conflict of interest with the product itself. So of course
they are going to make it sound better than it really is.

Who you want to listen to is somebody that has nothing to gain from the
good things or bad things said of a given product.

I will repeat what has been posted elsewhere in the thread, and say
that if it takes you more than an hour to work out how to use any
newsreader, then either you have a learning problem, or the
newsreader can't do what you want it to. Ease of use does not always
equate to versatility, adherence to standards or reliability, by the
way.

Who said anything about taking more than an hour to learn how to use a
newsreader? If you are thinking it was me, you are assuming incorrectly.
What I am talking was applications you use for years, you may never know
everything about them. This is so common throughout the industry. And I
say to you, it isn't they have a learning problem. But it is those that
don't understand this who really has a learning problem. ;-)

 

[BillW50]

In

In

BillW50 wrote:
[biggasnip]
It doesn't take me years to learn how to use a newsreader Sam. Why
would you say something so dumb?

Because with every post, you reinforce that you are incapable of
learning anything new.

'Nuff said.

No it isn't enough said! You started something and you think you can
walk away when it gets too hot in the kitchen? That isn't learning if
you ask me. And I have seen you make one mistake after another
because you make assumptions that aren't based on the truth. And now
you are probably thinking that you bit off too much to chew and now
you want to quit. As for me, I am willing to see what you started to
the end and I am more than willing to learn through the process. But
you apparently are not. So why are you not practicing what you
preach?

You keep spewing the same stuff. Why continue? (And I certainly
didn't start it -- you did.)

The only mistake I've made is apparently trying to find out what's
wrong with your thought processes. I've done that; you admitted
you're too old to learn anything new.

It is definitely cool in my kitchen.

I learn zillions of things a day Sam. But you claim I don't learn
anything. And yet when somebody tries to educate you, you can't even
learn you are mistaken. You're as blind as a bat as they say.

I have shown you an example where some who hasn't learned anything all
of their life can indeed live long and fruitful lives. Thus this shows
your original comment is false. Yet you continue in ignorance like it
had never happened. And you call that learning? I love for you to
explain that one. But I am afraid you are not capable of it. And the
only thing you have taught me so far is how much of a hypocrite you are.
I sure hope I am wrong, but I won't hold my breath over it.

 

[Sam Hill]

but I won't hold my breath over it.

Oh, I wish you would!!!

 

[Ian Jackson]

No matter how bad they are, they are better than Windows Live mail

I've been using Turnpike for nearly 15 years. As it's no longer
supported, and there are problems with it for most versions of Windows
later than XP, I've recently started seeing how Thunderbird compares by
running it in parallel with Turnpike. I also had a quick try of Agent.
To be honest, all three seem to work for me. Where am I going wrong?

 

[BillW50]

In

I've been using Turnpike for nearly 15 years. As it's no longer
supported, and there are problems with it for most versions of Windows
later than XP, I've recently started seeing how Thunderbird compares
by running it in parallel with Turnpike. I also had a quick try of
Agent. To be honest, all three seem to work for me. Where am I going
wrong?

Nothing if your needs are few. Some of us have higher standards and
readers of today just are not powerful enough.

 

[Ken Blake]

Oh, I wish you would!!!

Simply killfile him and the other trolls (like Alias), as many of us
do. I don't want to have to see your quotes of their messages.

 

[BillW50]

In

Oh, I wish you would!!!

Talk is cheap Sam. How come you continually show us how closed minded
you are? Yet you preach about those that have stopped learning. If I
didn't know any better, I would swear you were talking about yourself.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I've been using Turnpike for nearly 15 years. As it's no longer
supported, and there are problems with it for most versions of Windows
later than XP, I've recently started seeing how Thunderbird compares by
running it in parallel with Turnpike. I also had a quick try of Agent.
To be honest, all three seem to work for me. Where am I going wrong?

You are afflicted with competence.

There is medicine to fix that, you know.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Oh, I wish you would!!!

That's my best laugh so far today...

 

[BillW50]

In

Simply killfile him and the other trolls (like Alias), as many of us
do. I don't want to have to see your quotes of their messages.

I understand why Alias is called a troll. But I don't understand how you
could call me a troll. But you can label anybody anything you want to.
Although it doesn't make it any more true. I suppose you would call
Einstein a troll too. Because I use logic much like he did.

And it has been my experience somebody making claims without evidence
isn't to be trusted. For example Sam stated: "Once you stop learning,
you're ready to die." Then Sam continues: "If anyone here is dangerous,
it's you, young man. Since you've already given up on your life, why not
just turn the computer off and go wither away somewhere?"

And I had shown those statements are false. Sam doesn't show any
evidence for his (or hers) claims at all. And yet I am the one labeled
as a troll. No logic in that claim either. I don't understand why people
like you two think through a series of false claims are supposed to be
viewed as true? As doing so would only be showing your ignorance.

 

[BillW50]

In

That's my best laugh so far today...

What is even funnier is Sam exposed himself (or herself) as a fraud and
an hypocrite. I hope that doesn't happen to me when I get to be as old.
;-)

 

[Nil]

I've been using Turnpike for nearly 15 years. As it's no longer
supported, and there are problems with it for most versions of
Windows later than XP,

Not knowing anything at all about Turnpike, I would guess that the
problem is with installing and running it from within the Program Files
folder. Windows Vista and later don't allow that for security reasons.
The workaround would be to run it from some other location, such as
C:\Turnpike.

I've recently started seeing how
Thunderbird compares by running it in parallel with Turnpike. I
also had a quick try of Agent. To be honest, all three seem to
work for me. Where am I going wrong?

Not enough drugs and alcohol.

 

[Ken Springer]

In


Or they can ignore me and learn later that the others are indeed crap.
It could go either way you know. I admit my standards are very high, so
that is why I am so dissatisfied with what is out there. It is funny
that I remember readers from the 80's and 90's were so much better than
the readers we have today. So what happened? Where are these programmers
who knew how to write a decent reader years ago?

But crap is still an opinion, Bill. *You* may think it's crap, but 10
others may disagree. If you had said your *opinion* of the programs is
they are crap, and provided some reasons for your opinion, you probably
would have been OK. But you made a flat out statement they are crap,
and there's absolutely no way to prove that.

Before we trip over ourselves and p*ss each other off, let's have a
simple definition of standards. <grin>

Somewhere out in Ether World, there's got to be a document/specification
or two that specifies what a newsreader does, and how it should
accomplish it's job. Such as quoting with greater/less than symbols,
bars, whatever. I'm thinking they are called "RFC"s, but not sure of
that. And, they've probably changed/evolved over the years as computers
have changed, and the Internet has come about, etc.

The things that are in that document are to me, the standards by which
any program should be judged against. Not what you and/or I want.

Things you want and/or I want would be called features. If a particular
program implements a feature that is not in the specification, but does
not violate anything in that specification, the program still meets
standards, and exceeds standards. If a particular program does things
differently than what is delineated in the specification, then it does
*not* meet standards.

I've read for ages that OE does not quote correctly, and if true, then
OE does not meet standards. You may like how it works, but it still
doesn't meet standards. And for that reason and any reasons OE does not
follow the specifications, should allow others to classify OE as crap, IMO.

CTRL-H does something in OE, I've forgotten what you said that is. But,
if the result of CTRL-H is not in the specification, no other program is
obligated to provide that result because it's not part of the
specification. Even if your "personal" standards says it should. Those
standards apply only to you, not other users. CTRL-H is a feature, not
a standard in this instance.

As for where the programmers went, I suspect they drifted away to better
opportunities, and victims of poor computer education provided by just
about everybody from educators to manufacturers.

I totally agree.

But aren't you asking readers here to take your crap comments about the
3 other newsreaders as gospel?

I understand. But those who have been through what the OP is going
through can't help if they keep their mouth shut.

You should offer solutions as to how to solve his problem, quoting, not
call other people's recommendations/programs crap. How does that help
the OP decide what program meets his/her needs, since no one program
ever meets everyone's desires/needs?

Then why does many experts tell somebody don't even bother wasting your
time with XYZ for?

IMO, they want their recommendations taken as gospel. LOL

I've used Thunderbird for over 6 years and I still use it sometimes
today. But I have to admit, it could be made a lot easier to use (even
for a pro) and it makes mistakes that even a pro won't catch for years.

I have to say Mozilla's new rapid release schedule for TB and Firefox
isn't helping things, IMO. This is a recurring argument in the Mozilla
newsgroups.

Standards? I have very mixed opinions about standards. Sometimes they
can be a good thing and sometimes they can be a very bad thing.

True, and not everyone will agree with everything in a standard. But,
if there were no standards, all the power the user has with computers
today simply would not be possible.

First, I am so glad you know about you can't even trust the experts and
I say this being an expert on a thing or two. It really ticks me off
whether one is a licensed expert or not, claiming that you have to
listen to them because they are the so-called expert. That is pure crap!
Yes I said it again. ;-)

I refer back to my gospel statement about experts. LMAO RE: crap

And speaking about serious danger about somebody calling something as
crap, apparently means something totally different to me than it
apparently does with you. With me, two things happen when I hear
somebody say that:

1) My eyebrows rise

2) My curiosity kicks in. I want them to elaborate on why they think it
is crap. And I automatically won't write them off until I heard them
out.

#2 is exactly what you did not do.

Yes exactly.

But we're not going to see it. I sometimes think MS is more worried
about Apple than losing their own customers.

Oh I believe the mass majority of newsgroup users would agree that OE is
very simple to use. And the number one complaint I hear about OE is that
it is too simple to use and those that use it doesn't know any better.

My experience with OE was positive, but that was before I started
learning the "correct" way things should be done when posting and doing
email. But now that I know it doesn't do things correctly automatically
(you need things like Quote Fix which I never used and apparently is no
longer supported), I have no interest is moving back to it. I don't
know if Outlook can do newsgroups on the Mac.

Of course it is my opinion. As I don't speak for everybody or even a
group of people. And of course people are free to make up their own
minds. But what will they learn after it is all said and done? They will
say they didn't like some of the recommended replacements, won't they?

Some will, some won't. Some will stick to something no longer being
supported, fixed, and breaks known rules. Just like I want to set up my
old Atari computers, which believe it or not, does have a few people
still writing software for the 16/32 bit machines.

The thing is, you need to let them come to their own conclusions,
without muddying the waters by being adamant something is crap. As I
said, it only makes you look bad.

Why doesn't it make some of the new stuff as crap? I could see some of
the new stuff as crap. And history has proved some new stuff as crap.
And the list of new crap that isn't here yet will be never ending.

The new stuff isn't crap because it does the job it's designed to do.
The designs just don't necessarily do what *I* want, which may be
indicative of some of your frustrations. The new stuff doesn't do what
you want.

In the case of Atari computers, I miss the simpler interface, although I
used a replacement desktop called Geneva which had cooperative
multitasking. Simplicity is one advantage I think the Mac has over
Windows, as long as you understand how you do things differently between
Macs and Windows. Even then, there's things I miss in my Mac. I have
OS 10.6.8 Snow Leopard. Believe it or not, there's no Move command. A
disappointment for me. (I can cheat here, run Windows in virtual
machine, and move stuff around in my Mac drives/partitions! LOL)

A bit of history, Atari basically "stole" the original TOS 1 from MS,
and made an error in the programming code. Inadvertently, you could
move files between windows. That wasn't planned, but quickly changed
from a bug to a feature! <grin> OTOH, a typo limited the early TOS
hard drives to 16 MB instead of 32 MB like MS drives.

For the sound stuff, nothing designed today, that I know of, does what I
want to be able to do. And, the few people that have heard my sound
system, are definitely jealous! Which I play to the hilt, of course! LOL

But it's becoming increasingly difficult to merge/connect the old with
the new. I've still not come up with a good way to connect my new
widescreen LCD TV to the old stereo (yes, I said stereo) equipment. :-(

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 12.0
Thunderbird 12.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2

 

[Ken Springer]

And
spending all of your time learning new things starts to become very
unproductive.

+1 Especially if you're using the program to make a living!

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 12.0
Thunderbird 12.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2

 

[Char Jackson]

For the sound stuff, nothing designed today, that I know of, does what I
want to be able to do.

The part above sounds like you're talking about recording, but the
next part below sounds like you're talking about playback. I'm curious
to hear what's noteworthy about your system? I have some upgrades
planned and I may be able to steal an idea or two.

And, the few people that have heard my sound
system, are definitely jealous! Which I play to the hilt, of course! LOL

But it's becoming increasingly difficult to merge/connect the old with
the new. I've still not come up with a good way to connect my new
widescreen LCD TV to the old stereo (yes, I said stereo) equipment. :-(

I bought 3 HDTV's in the past 2 years, and each of them has stereo
audio outputs, making a stereo connection very straightforward. What
challenges are you seeing?

 

[Ken Springer]

The part above sounds like you're talking about recording, but the
next part below sounds like you're talking about playback. I'm curious
to hear what's noteworthy about your system? I have some upgrades
planned and I may be able to steal an idea or two.

Playback is the issue. Since this is definitely OT, I'd prefer to go
email if you don't mind. The address in the header is valid.

And as a starting point, mind telling me your age before we begin? That
will make it easier to determine a start point for the explanation.

I bought 3 HDTV's in the past 2 years, and each of them has stereo
audio outputs, making a stereo connection very straightforward. What
challenges are you seeing?

Basically, insufficient and incompatible inputs/outputs. Plus, lousy
effing documentation. Nothing worth a damn came with the TV, but there
is an onscreen manual, but have not taken the time to really read it.
What I have read has not impressed me. Nor, have I gone to Samsung's
web site to see what may be there.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 12.0
Thunderbird 12.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.2.2

 

[Char Jackson]

Playback is the issue. Since this is definitely OT, I'd prefer to go
email if you don't mind. The address in the header is valid.

And as a starting point, mind telling me your age before we begin? That
will make it easier to determine a start point for the explanation.

I didn't realize there'd be an entrance exam. ;-)
I haven't taken Usenet to email since about 1984 and prefer to keep
the two separate, if you don't mind. Pick an empty group if you like,
such as alt.fan.roadrunner.

Basically, insufficient and incompatible inputs/outputs. Plus, lousy
effing documentation. Nothing worth a damn came with the TV, but there
is an onscreen manual, but have not taken the time to really read it.
What I have read has not impressed me. Nor, have I gone to Samsung's
web site to see what may be there.

I couldn't tell you much about documentation. When it comes to
interconnecting AV equipment, I just look at the equipment itself. All
of the inputs and outputs will (usually) be clearly labeled, making
connections a breeze.