Bit of a historical question: MS-DOS

[John Williamson]

Loved the description!


Indeed - though I don't remember what it was: a word processor?

It was. I assume it would still work, if I had an Epson compatible
printer to go with the computer. I've also got a copy of Borland Sprint
which should still install, assuming the floppies are okay, which was my
preferred DOS wordprocessor.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

In message <[email protected]>, David H. Lipman

(Yes, but were there 64 of them?)
ISTR being told that the limit was 100, and am now wondering whether
your 64 was in hex. (which comes out as 100); however, others have
posted more comprehensive lists of limits for various media, and I
couldn't see 100 (or 64) in them.

64.

You should expect numbers that have a lot of zeros in binary, as 64
decimal does (1000000), not numbers with few zeros in binary, such as
100 decimal (1100100). Such numbers match the hardware better.

It was 100 octal, actually.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Basically, it put all your files into one file, didn't it? So you could
lose it/them all at once if that file got corrupted. And yet, people
continue to use email (and possibly news) software that does that (for
emails), ...

Yup, not that I knew that at the time when first installing it. I just
assumed that Microsoft knew what it was doing when it created DoubleSpace.

Actually, is there _any_ email software (XP, 7, or even '9x) that stores
each email as a separate real file? (In real folders/directories?)

Thunderbird keeps all of its newsgroup messages in separate files. But
email is kept in a single file.

Yousuf Khan

 

[John Williamson]

Yup, not that I knew that at the time when first installing it. I just
assumed that Microsoft knew what it was doing when it created DoubleSpace.


Thunderbird keeps all of its newsgroup messages in separate files. But
email is kept in a single file.

To be picky, Thunderbird keeps each e-mail folder in a pair of files.
the $mailboxname.sdb file is a container for the messages, and the .msf
file contains info about those messages.

So, if you have a folder in the inbox per sender, then there is a file
pair per sender.

Newsgroups are similar, but there is also an extra file per server,
telling TB which groups are on that server.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

To be picky, Thunderbird keeps each e-mail folder in a pair of files.
the $mailboxname.sdb file is a container for the messages, and the .msf
file contains info about those messages.

So, if you have a folder in the inbox per sender, then there is a file
pair per sender.

Newsgroups are similar, but there is also an extra file per server,
telling TB which groups are on that server.

Thanks, interesting.

So it _still_ isn't keeping _individual emails_ (or news posts) in
individual files, so several (possibly many) can be lost if a single
file is corrupted.

(Not that, AFAIK, _any_ email/news client does. Unless maybe a DOS or
possibly a Linux/Unix one.)

 

[Leon Manfredi]

Thanks for that.

I've used one called File Commander.

There is also Windows Xplorer 2, available here:

http://www.zabkat.com/

How about Qfiler, Qedit, The Semware Editors TsePro....

 

[Mortimer]

Microsoft's Windows Mail (Vista) and Windows Live Mail (Win 7) store each
email message as a separate .eml file and each newsgroup message as a
separate .nws file, within filesystem folder/directory structures that match
the structure in the email program, apart from slight truncation of email
folder names when generating the corresponding filesystem folder name. It's
very useful to be able to edit or annotate .eml files (using a text
editor) - the only proviso is that you must not be looking at the message in
WM or WLM at the time (and it may be safer to close WM/WLM altogether).

The advantage of one-file-per-email is that you can edit messages and that
file corruption affects only one message. The advantage of Outlook Express's
(and Outlook's) approach is that it is quicker to search one .dbx file per
email folder or one .pst file for all emails than it is to open and search
many .eml files.

Thanks, interesting.

So it _still_ isn't keeping _individual emails_ (or news posts) in
individual files, so several (possibly many) can be lost if a single file
is corrupted.

(Not that, AFAIK, _any_ email/news client does. Unless maybe a DOS or
possibly a Linux/Unix one.)

See above...

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Microsoft's Windows Mail (Vista) and Windows Live Mail (Win 7) store
each email message as a separate .eml file and each newsgroup message
as a separate .nws file, within filesystem folder/directory structures
that match the structure in the email program, apart from slight
truncation of email folder names when generating the corresponding
filesystem folder name. It's very useful to be able to edit or annotate
.eml files (using a text editor) - the only proviso is that you must
not be looking at the message in WM or WLM at the time (and it may be
safer to close WM/WLM altogether).

Thanks for the info.! I _am_ surprised. (I'd not looked closely at the
"Live" offerings, as I felt they assumed an always-on connection and
smelt rather of the cloud [the name does, for a start], but maybe I
should.)

The advantage of one-file-per-email is that you can edit messages and
that file corruption affects only one message. The advantage of Outlook

That is certainly my view - especially the corruption side.

Express's (and Outlook's) approach is that it is quicker to search one
.dbx file per email folder or one .pst file for all emails than it is
to open and search many .eml files.

I guess that's why (especially in the days of slower processors and,
especially, discs) things evolved to be mostly that way.
[]
Now howabout a news client that keeps separate files (-:?

 

[Mortimer]

[]
Now howabout a news client that keeps separate files (-:?

Windows Mail and Windows Live Mail use separate .nws files for each
newsgroup message.

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, John.

Actually, is there _any_ email software (XP, 7, or even '9x) that stores
each email as a separate real file? (In real folders/directories?)

Yes! As pointed out by Mortimer a few posts down...

Windows Mail, OE's successor that was integrated into Windows Vista over 5
years ago, discarded OE's All-In-One humongous DBX file approach and
introduced a new scheme. Other more-techie users can describe the details
better than I can, but in WM, each email message is saved in a separate .eml
file, and each newsgroup post in its own .nws file. Windows Live Mail
continues this new scheme.

A DBX file was very efficient use of storage: 1,000 messages of 1 K bytes
(including overhead) each would use only 1,000 KB on the disk. But, as you
noted, one bad bit in the 1 MB file could lose all 1,000 messages. In the
WM/WLM scheme, each of the 1,000 small files would take its own 4 KB
cluster, for a total of 4 MB, but one bad file would leave the other 999
messages unscathed. And, each message can be individually accessed and
edited by programs other than WM/WLM.

As I'm sure you know, OE was an integral part of WinXP/9x; WM was an
integral part of Vista; but Win7 contains NO mail or news app at all. WLM
was never an integral part of any Windows OS, but can be downloaded and
installed into WinXP/Vista/Win7 - and I'm now using it in the Win8 Release
Preview. (WinXP can run 2009 and prior versions of WLM, but not 2011. Some
users have installed WM into Win7, but that is not supported by Microsoft.)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win8 (Release Preview)


"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message

But DoubleSpace was horrible. I lost a lot of data due to that one.

Yousuf Khan

Basically, it put all your files into one file, didn't it? So you could
lose it/them all at once if that file got corrupted. And yet, people
continue to use email (and possibly news) software that does that (for
emails), ...

Actually, is there _any_ email software (XP, 7, or even '9x) that stores
each email as a separate real file? (In real folders/directories?)[/QUOTE]

 

[Mortimer]

As I'm sure you know, OE was an integral part of WinXP/9x; WM was an
integral part of Vista; but Win7 contains NO mail or news app at all. WLM
was never an integral part of any Windows OS, but can be downloaded and
installed into WinXP/Vista/Win7 - and I'm now using it in the Win8 Release
Preview. (WinXP can run 2009 and prior versions of WLM, but not 2011.
Some users have installed WM into Win7, but that is not supported by
Microsoft.)

Every Windows 7 PC that I've seen has had Windows Live Mail already
installed. It may be that a lot of PC vendors who supply their PCs
pre-installed with Win 7 add it to the customised builds of Win 7 that they
install (along with manufacturer-specific bloatware that they "helpfully"
supply). I'm not sure about an installation from Microsoft's Win 7 CD.

Does anyone have any instructions which actually work for installing WM on
Win 7? I've seen instructions on various web sites but they assume that you
have the same "bitness" of Vista and Win 7, whereas most people have 32-bit
Vista and 64-bit Win 7. I still have a (32-bit) Vista PC that I could copy
the c:\program files folder from. I even found a site which claimed to have
instructions for running 32-bit WM on 64-bit Win 7, but they didn't work:
despite following the instructions to the letter, the exe file crashed (I
forget the precise details - it was a while ago).

The UI of WLM, especially the 2011 rather than 2009 version, with its ribbon
interface, is a real backward step and I wish I could go back to the UI of
WM.

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Mortimer.

Every Windows 7 PC that I've seen has had Windows Live Mail already
installed. It may be that a lot of PC vendors who supply their PCs
pre-installed with Win 7 add it to the customised builds of Win 7 that
they install (along with manufacturer-specific bloatware that they
"helpfully" supply).

Right. MANY (most?) PC vendors add WLM to all the computers they sell with
Win7 pre-installed. But Microsoft does not do that.

I'm not sure about an installation from Microsoft's Win 7 CD.

The Win7 CD does NOT contain WLM - or any other mail or news app.

As Microsoft says, you are free to install any mail/news app(s) that you
want, and many users do. Or you can download WLMail and any or all the
other "Windows Live Essentials" by simply going to this URL:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/features/windows-live-essentials

As you can see, the "Live Essentials" also include WL Messenger, Movie
Maker, Photo Gallery and others.

The UI of WLM, especially the 2011 rather than 2009 version, with its
ribbon interface, is a real backward step and I wish I could go back to
the UI of WM.

The Ribbon UI definitely takes some getting used to! After about a year
with it, I'm comfy with it. But some of WLM's "features" are serious
drawbacks, especially the failure to properly quote the prior thread. I've
not seriously tried to use WM in Win7 (or Win8).

The transition to Win8 is going to be interesting! Win8 includes its own
Mail app, but it is much different from Windows Live Mail. Even here in
Win8 RP, I'm using WLM, not Win8's Mail. It's not clear yet whether that
will still be possible in the final version of Win8.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win8 (Release Preview)


"Mortimer" wrote in message

As I'm sure you know, OE was an integral part of WinXP/9x; WM was an
integral part of Vista; but Win7 contains NO mail or news app at all. WLM
was never an integral part of any Windows OS, but can be downloaded and
installed into WinXP/Vista/Win7 - and I'm now using it in the Win8 Release
Preview. (WinXP can run 2009 and prior versions of WLM, but not 2011.
Some users have installed WM into Win7, but that is not supported by
Microsoft.)

Every Windows 7 PC that I've seen has had Windows Live Mail already
installed. It may be that a lot of PC vendors who supply their PCs
pre-installed with Win 7 add it to the customised builds of Win 7 that they
install (along with manufacturer-specific bloatware that they "helpfully"
supply). I'm not sure about an installation from Microsoft's Win 7 CD.

Does anyone have any instructions which actually work for installing WM on
Win 7? I've seen instructions on various web sites but they assume that you
have the same "bitness" of Vista and Win 7, whereas most people have 32-bit
Vista and 64-bit Win 7. I still have a (32-bit) Vista PC that I could copy
the c:\program files folder from. I even found a site which claimed to have
instructions for running 32-bit WM on 64-bit Win 7, but they didn't work:
despite following the instructions to the letter, the exe file crashed (I
forget the precise details - it was a while ago).

The UI of WLM, especially the 2011 rather than 2009 version, with its ribbon
interface, is a real backward step and I wish I could go back to the UI of
WM.

 

[Ken Blake]

The transition to Win8 is going to be interesting! Win8 includes its own
Mail app, but it is much different from Windows Live Mail. Even here in
Win8 RP, I'm using WLM, not Win8's Mail. It's not clear yet whether that
will still be possible in the final version of Win8.

RC, how did you get the >s in your reply? Did you add them manually?

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Ken.

Yes, I had to add the ">"'s manually.

For a single line, it's easy.

For a multi-line quote, I have to remove the internal line breaks, then add
just a single ">" in front of the first line. When WLM reformats the
paragraph, it adds ">" to the beginning of each reformatted line.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win8 (Release Preview)


"Ken Blake" wrote in message

The transition to Win8 is going to be interesting! Win8 includes its own
Mail app, but it is much different from Windows Live Mail. Even here in
Win8 RP, I'm using WLM, not Win8's Mail. It's not clear yet whether that
will still be possible in the final version of Win8.

RC, how did you get the >s in your reply? Did you add them manually?

 

[Ken Blake]

Hi, Ken.

Yes, I had to add the ">"'s manually.

For a single line, it's easy.

For a multi-line quote, I have to remove the internal line breaks, then add
just a single ">" in front of the first line. When WLM reformats the
paragraph, it adds ">" to the beginning of each reformatted line.

Ugh! Not trying to tell you what to do, of course--it's your
choice--but why don't you dump the terrible Windows Live Mail and use
any of several much better programs instead?

 

[glee]

I've used the ancient utilty QuoteClip (1994) for years, to do it for
me. I used it up through Windows XP, I haven't tried it in Win7 or on a
64-bit OS yet.
http://aumha.org/freeware/freeware.php#qclip

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Ken.

...why don't you dump the terrible Windows Live Mail...

I've heard that advice many times over the last several years, especially
since MS killed their part of Usenet and crippled WLM. But OE/WM/WLM have
been such a large part of my computing environment for so long (since 1995!)
that I just hate to give it up. It's kind of like an old faithful dog that
needs to be put out of its misery - but I just can't bear to do that, yet.

Perhaps after the transition to Win8 is complete in a few months, it will be
the time for me to investigate the several alternatives recommended by you
and others. I do appreciate the advice; I'm just not (quite) ready to
follow it.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win8 (Release Preview)


"Ken Blake" wrote in message

Hi, Ken.

Yes, I had to add the ">"'s manually.

For a single line, it's easy.

For a multi-line quote, I have to remove the internal line breaks, then
add
just a single ">" in front of the first line. When WLM reformats the
paragraph, it adds ">" to the beginning of each reformatted line.

Ugh! Not trying to tell you what to do, of course--it's your
choice--but why don't you dump the terrible Windows Live Mail and use
any of several much better programs instead?

 

[Ken Blake]

Hi, Ken.


I've heard that advice many times over the last several years, especially
since MS killed their part of Usenet and crippled WLM. But OE/WM/WLM have
been such a large part of my computing environment for so long (since 1995!)
that I just hate to give it up.

Even though you have the extra work of putting in the >s? Both in
newsgroups and E-mail?

Your choice of course, but for e-mail you might want to consider
Microsoft Outlook, which, as far as I'm concerned, is more like
Outlook Express than Windows Live Mail is. And I like Forte Agent for
a newsreader.

It's kind of like an old faithful dog that
needs to be put out of its misery - but I just can't bear to do that, yet.

OK. <g>

 

[Mortimer]

Even though you have the extra work of putting in the >s? Both in
newsgroups and E-mail?

Your choice of course, but for e-mail you might want to consider
Microsoft Outlook, which, as far as I'm concerned, is more like
Outlook Express than Windows Live Mail is. And I like Forte Agent for
a newsreader.

Outlook stores everything in one huge .pst file, which is where I came into
this discussion - one file per email versus one file per email folder or
even one file for *all* folders. This makes it prone to corruption - and,
yes, I've had to repair corrupted psts and it's a) very slow, and b) not
100% perfect. Also Outlook seems to be more prone to getting its
send/receive processes in a muddle, failing to send/recive to specific
accounts - more so than for OE/WM/WLM. And it can't save email accounts to
..iaf filews (or equivalent) and import those, which makes it a pain when
migrating from one PC to another.

Apart from that, it's good: its UI is good and it has extras like calendar
and reminders.

How easy is it with Outlook to export specific messages (eg specific
folders) from one PC to another to synchronise two PCs' email sets from time
to time? Is it as simple as copying the PST or is more complictaed? With
WM/WLM you can slect/drag/drop messages to a shared folder and then (on the
other PC looking at the shared folder) drag those .eml files from there to
the email folder. Slightly clunky but 100% reliable.

Having all the emails in one big file means the whole thing needs to be
copied to backup everytime you back up the emails, whereas when you backup
WM/WLM, only the new/moved emails need to be copied to backup disk - eg with
SyncToy.

 

[Dave-UK]

Hi, Ken.


I've heard that advice many times over the last several years, especially
since MS killed their part of Usenet and crippled WLM. But OE/WM/WLM have
been such a large part of my computing environment for so long (since 1995!)
that I just hate to give it up. It's kind of like an old faithful dog that
needs to be put out of its misery - but I just can't bear to do that, yet.

Perhaps after the transition to Win8 is complete in a few months, it will be
the time for me to investigate the several alternatives recommended by you
and others. I do appreciate the advice; I'm just not (quite) ready to
follow it.

How about dumping WLM version 15 and returning to version 14 ?
That will save you having to add all the '>'.

WLM2009 ver 14
http://g.live.com/1rewlive3/en/wlsetup-all.exe
(You can select what you want to install.)