Windows should increment file names

[Gene E. Bloch]

I'm talking about where you right-click on an object INSIDE the program,
like a node in a tree list (say, for a folder - which has NOTHING to do
with the file system but merely how the data is organized within the
application). When you click on a tree node, it gets selected. When
you right-click on a tree node, it may not get selected. The context
menu is still showing actions for the node on which you right-clicked
but if you later do some other action, like from a toolbar, then what
you last right-clicked on may not be the selected object.

I don't remember if it was a newsreader or e-mail client where I saw
this. It would show a list of folders or some data grouping in a tree
list on the left side. I'd right-click on a tree node to select some
action from the context menu. Because I had right-clicked on that node
and because I saw the highlight change to that tree node, I figured it
was the selected node, too. Nope, so the menu/toolbar action was
against the actual selected tree node instead of the one that I had just
right-clicked on.

This is not an issue with the common browser dialog presented by Windows
that an app might call up. I'm talking about the UI for the app itself.

[/QUOTE]

I assume that behavior was limited to a single application, and since
we don't know what it was, it'll remain a mystery. Besides the app
name, the other unknown is whether it's an app some of us are likely
to be using. We may never find out.

I remember one program where I experienced it more than once. It's a
rarely used & obscure program called Windows Explorer.

Now that I've possibly offended you guys, please take this opportunity
to ignore the above sarcasm

And it really was Explorer...

 

[Char Jackson]

Actually there is a setting in Folder options on the General tab
to 'Point to select'. I've just tried it and the arrow cursor
changes to a pointed hand which selects on hovering over a file!

I think we can rule that out, though, unless two conditions exist.
1) R.C. would need to have explicitly enabled that option, since it's
not enabled by default.
2) Since he said it only happens rarely, the 'point to select' option
must be seriously broken.

The mystery continues, and I continue to be skeptical.

 

[Char Jackson]

Except I don't think hovering selects a file.

Hey! You can't say "except" and then agree with me.

As Dave-UK just
mentioned, it can be so set, but I always keep that setting off.

I assume most do the same.

My 0.003-baud brain has dredged up a vague memory that what I have done
is right-clicked a filename, chosen something from the pop-up menu, and
found that the file being operated on is *not* the one I right-clicked.

None-the-less, I remain aware that my memory of the sequence(s) of
steps I have taken to cause this is confused.

And it is frustrating...

I'd have to see it to believe it, since right-clicking selects the
file under the pointer before bringing up the context menu. I suspect
there's a stray click happening along the way.

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Char.

I don't think there's any documented evidence that hovering, by itself,
can select a file.

Hovering alone won't OPEN a file, but it definitely can SELECT a file. Try
this:

Open Windows Explorer to a folder with a list of files. Hover your mouse
over any file and watch it turn blue - it is selected. Now, press <Enter>
and that file will OPEN. Or hold down <Ctrl> while you hover over a second
file and see it turn blue, too; now both files are selected. Or hold down
the Shift key to SELECT all the files between... I'll not bother to
continue because you know all this.

Now, if I want to save your post to which I am now Replying, I can click the
WLM button, then Save | Save as file, and it will offer to save your post
into my Libraries | Documents folder as an NWS file; the proposed name is
already filled in for me and all I have to do is press <Enter> to save it as
"Re_ Windows should increment file names.nws".

But I don't want to put it there. I want it in the folder with other NWS
files that I have saved in WLM's Storage Folders. So I navigate to my Mail
Store. My path will not be the same as yours, of course, but I will need to
browse to a folder that contains NWS files, because WLM won't list any other
kind at this point. When I get to such a folder, the list of .nws files
will appear and one will be highlighted - AND that filename will also appear
in the "File name:" box of the Save as dialog window. If I just press
<Enter>, your post will be saved to THAT filename, which is NOT what I
intended! If I hover the mouse over a different filename, it will be
highlighted and ITS name will appear in the File name box; your message will
be saved to that name instead. To save it with YOUR message name in that
folder, I'll need to manually type or copy'n'paste the name of your message
into the File name box. (Note that WLM's file names are cryptic names like
1F8C6745-35B0F883.NWS, rather than the text in the Subject.)

Now, I must confess that I didn't actually go through with this experiment;
I just went far enough to confirm my memory of what happens in WLM's Save As
dialog. If you test this, please post your results.

Gene B., is this the "something similar" that you were thinking of in your
"heat of the battle" post yesterday?

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


"Char Jackson" wrote in message

Hi, Gene.

Your "heat of the battle" scenario is the one I mean:


The file may or may not be highlighted and turned blue in the file list,
but
its name now appears in the "File name:" box of the Save or Save As dialog
window. When I am vigilant, I can simply correct the name, but "in the
heat
of the battle", I might just press <Enter> - and the damage is done.

Like you, I can't make this happen on demand and, when it does happen, I'm
too rushed and frustrated to investigate. Besides, MY problem is soon
fixed
and I just go on to other priorities.

RC

The simplest explanation is probably the right one. When you think
you're only hovering over a filename, you're unintentionally clicking
on it and selecting it. I don't think there's any documented evidence
that hovering, by itself, can select a file.

 

[Char Jackson]

Hi, Char.


Hovering alone won't OPEN a file, but it definitely can SELECT a file. Try
this:

Open Windows Explorer to a folder with a list of files. Hover your mouse
over any file and watch it turn blue - it is selected. Now, press <Enter>
and that file will OPEN. Or hold down <Ctrl> while you hover over a second
file and see it turn blue, too; now both files are selected. Or hold down
the Shift key to SELECT all the files between... I'll not bother to
continue because you know all this.

That experiment totally fails for me. I thought it might be because I
have Classic Shell installed, so I tried it on two other Win 7 systems
that don't have Classic Shell installed. It failed there, as well. How
are you coaxing Windows Explorer to select a file by only hovering
over it? Do you have that option selected, "Single click to open,
point to select"? If not, how do you explain it?

Now, if I want to save your post to which I am now Replying, I can click the
WLM button, then Save | Save as file, and it will offer to save your post
into my Libraries | Documents folder as an NWS file; the proposed name is
already filled in for me and all I have to do is press <Enter> to save it as
"Re_ Windows should increment file names.nws".

But I don't want to put it there. I want it in the folder with other NWS
files that I have saved in WLM's Storage Folders. So I navigate to my Mail
Store. My path will not be the same as yours, of course, but I will need to
browse to a folder that contains NWS files, because WLM won't list any other
kind at this point. When I get to such a folder, the list of .nws files
will appear and one will be highlighted - AND that filename will also appear
in the "File name:" box of the Save as dialog window. If I just press
<Enter>, your post will be saved to THAT filename, which is NOT what I
intended! If I hover the mouse over a different filename, it will be
highlighted and ITS name will appear in the File name box; your message will
be saved to that name instead. To save it with YOUR message name in that
folder, I'll need to manually type or copy'n'paste the name of your message
into the File name box. (Note that WLM's file names are cryptic names like
1F8C6745-35B0F883.NWS, rather than the text in the Subject.)

It sounds like you do, in fact, have that Win Explorer option enabled.
If so, you should have mentioned it long before now because that
totally changes the landscape.

Now, I must confess that I didn't actually go through with this experiment;
I just went far enough to confirm my memory of what happens in WLM's Save As
dialog. If you test this, please post your results.

I _don't_ have the option enabled, "Single click to open, point to
select", so I can't duplicate any of the behavior you're seeing.

 

[choro]

Forget this "sorting" things.

Let's get on with more important things like how many ways to boil an
egg? ;-)

-- choro


It won't "select" but it will select in the sense that it will highlight
it! But there are more important issues at stake here. How many ways to
boil an egg? I won't go into frying eggs because that is a far more
complicated matter.

 

[VanguardLH]

Char Jackson wrote:


Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Metspitzer wrote:

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?

Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does
that but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document,
it's not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for
your work on the document since it won't know the size of the
document. Your application is going to create a [sometimes
temporary] file which can be expanded as needed as you add more to
the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?

That middle paragraph is oddly out of place. Does the size of a
document play a role in how its default name is generated?

What I meant is Windows isn't going to allocate all of available memory
for a file space since it won't know how big will be the file. It will
load the application into memory (a portion of it) and the application
might allocate a buffer in which it loads a portion of the file.
Whether temporary or the target file, the app is going to create a file
for the new document, not Windows.

Fair enough, but still 100% unrelated to the OP's question about
default filenames.

Then why did YOU ask your question?

I was trying to gently guide you into understanding that your middle
paragraph was 100% unrelated to the OP's question. Instead of picking
up on what I was trying to point out, you blindly forged ahead, still
100% unrelated to the OP's question about file names.

You asked, I answered,

Your answer should have been "No, and I apologize for wandering off on
a tangent", but that's not what happened.

and now it's unrelated?

It was always 100% unrelated. I'm sure you see that now.

No, it wasn't unrelated to YOUR question in your subthread.
Was my prior reply unrelated? No, because it says the app might create
a memory buffer for the document but the app is still the culprit that
creates a file.

You'll probably want to rethink that.

What you did is what is colloquially considered to be a "Microsoft
answer". What that means is that the information you provided was
factually correct, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the
question being asked.

When you load an application which generates a "new" document, does it
always create a file? NO! It might start out using a buffer. WHERE is
that buffer? Geez, this is really that hard for you to figure.

No one suggested that a temp file is created. You made that part up.

Wow, you really can't follow the hierarchical list of posts in a
subthread, can you? Geez, just look at my first reply which mentions
the app creates the [temp] file. And, yes, despite your ignorance, many
programs DO create a file when you load them and they create a new
document. Example: MS Word.

In fact, you made up the whole 'temp file in buffer' part, because
none of that was in the OP's post. He asked about filenames, not temp
files and buffers.

Yeah, Char, we already know you can't follow a discussion.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Seriously? 200+ lines of text that essentially says the same thing a
dozen different ways? Dude...

Did you then have to quote the 200+ lines in their entirety just to add
your two (-:?

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

No one suggested that a temp file is created. You made that part up.
In fact, you made up the whole 'temp file in buffer' part, because
none of that was in the OP's post. He asked about filenames, not temp
files and buffers.

[]

Cool it, guys. I think part of the confusion is that some of these
applications put, at the top of the window they open with this memory
buffer in it, a title (such as "Untitled"), and it _looks_ as if it's
editing a file of that name - in fact I don't think there's any way of
telling, until you actually save, that that's not what is happening. (In
other words, if you actually _were_ editing a file called "Untitled",
the window would look the same.)

I sort of agree with the subject suggestion - but probably not
automatic: when you attempt to overwrite an existing file, perhaps a
third button (as well as OK and Cancel) saying "increment filename"
might be a good idea. (Except that the wording would have to be better.)

 

[Roy Smith]

Or better yet, let's take a poll and ask the question:

Do you put your pants on one leg at a time?

 

[Ken Blake]

Hi, Char.


Hovering alone won't OPEN a file, but it definitely can SELECT a file. Try
this:

Open Windows Explorer to a folder with a list of files. Hover your mouse
over any file and watch it turn blue - it is selected.

Sorry, RC, but it doesn't do that here.

There must be something unusual about your setup.

 

[Char Jackson]

Did you then have to quote the 200+ lines in their entirety just to add
your two (-:?

Yes. My reply wouldn't have made any sense otherwise.

 

[Char Jackson]

Char Jackson wrote:


Char Jackson wrote:


Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Metspitzer wrote:

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?

Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does
that but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document,
it's not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for
your work on the document since it won't know the size of the
document. Your application is going to create a [sometimes
temporary] file which can be expanded as needed as you add more to
the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?

That middle paragraph is oddly out of place. Does the size of a
document play a role in how its default name is generated?

What I meant is Windows isn't going to allocate all of available memory
for a file space since it won't know how big will be the file. It will
load the application into memory (a portion of it) and the application
might allocate a buffer in which it loads a portion of the file.
Whether temporary or the target file, the app is going to create a file
for the new document, not Windows.

Fair enough, but still 100% unrelated to the OP's question about
default filenames.

Then why did YOU ask your question?

I was trying to gently guide you into understanding that your middle
paragraph was 100% unrelated to the OP's question. Instead of picking
up on what I was trying to point out, you blindly forged ahead, still
100% unrelated to the OP's question about file names.

You asked, I answered,

Your answer should have been "No, and I apologize for wandering off on
a tangent", but that's not what happened.

and now it's unrelated?

It was always 100% unrelated. I'm sure you see that now.

No, it wasn't unrelated to YOUR question in your subthread.
Was my prior reply unrelated? No, because it says the app might create
a memory buffer for the document but the app is still the culprit that
creates a file.

You'll probably want to rethink that.

What you did is what is colloquially considered to be a "Microsoft
answer". What that means is that the information you provided was
factually correct, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the
question being asked.

When you load an application which generates a "new" document, does it
always create a file? NO! It might start out using a buffer. WHERE is
that buffer? Geez, this is really that hard for you to figure.

No one suggested that a temp file is created. You made that part up.

Wow, you really can't follow the hierarchical list of posts in a
subthread, can you? Geez, just look at my first reply which mentions
the app creates the [temp] file.

You know I looked at your first reply because that's the reply I
commented on. It consisted of three paragraphs, of which the first and
third directly related to the OP, but the second paragraph was
entirely unrelated. I can't believe you're still pretending not to see
that.

And, yes, despite your ignorance, many
programs DO create a file when you load them and they create a new
document. Example: MS Word.

Who cares? The OP didn't ask about temp files, he asked about
filenames. If you're going to include random unrelated bits of
information, why stop there?

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Ken.

The single-click option is one of those most-basic Folder Options that I do
each time I install or re-install Windows. I've been doing it for so long
that I forget that it's not the default. And I'm amazed that it's not done
"instinctively" by every experienced Windows user. Especially those more
sophisticated users who frequent these newsgroups. ;^}

When were these "Folder options" first offered? Win95? Earlier? That's
when they became "second nature" to me. ;^}

My first order of business after getting the new Windows installed is Folder
Options. Show extensions, show hidden files, etc., about a half-dozen items
here. Then set IE's Internet Options to clear the cache when I exit IE, and
to put the TIF on a second HDD... And set the deeply-buried option to NOT
"Automatically restart" on System failure. Within less than an hour, I've
made all these changes - and kind of forgotten that I had to do them because
Microsoft should have delivered Windows the way I want it! ;<)

And I forget that some folks don't do it my way. I don't think of my setup
as "unusual" in any way.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


"Ken Blake" wrote in message

Hi, Char.


Hovering alone won't OPEN a file, but it definitely can SELECT a file.
Try
this:

Open Windows Explorer to a folder with a list of files. Hover your mouse
over any file and watch it turn blue - it is selected.

Sorry, RC, but it doesn't do that here.

There must be something unusual about your setup.

 

[choro]

Or better yet, let's take a poll and ask the question:

Do you put your pants on one leg at a time?

If by pants you mean pantaloons (i.e. trousers) very definitely so. If
you mean underwear, then it depends on the type of underwear you are
talking about. But in any case you ALWAYS *start* putting them on one
leg at a time. Unless you are in a state of weightlessness in which case
you could try inserting both legs in at the same time.
-- choro
PS. There are always more ways than one to boil an egg.

 

[Ken Blake]

Hi, Ken.

The single-click option is one of those most-basic Folder Options that I do
each time I install or re-install Windows. I've been doing it for so long
that I forget that it's not the default. And I'm amazed that it's not done
"instinctively" by every experienced Windows user. Especially those more
sophisticated users who frequent these newsgroups. ;^}

I've tried it, but didn't like it. We all have different tastes about
many things.

My first order of business after getting the new Windows installed is Folder
Options. Show extensions, show hidden files, etc., about a half-dozen items
here.

Me too.

Then set IE's Internet Options to clear the cache when I exit IE, and
to put the TIF on a second HDD... And set the deeply-buried option to NOT
"Automatically restart" on System failure.

Me too.

Within less than an hour, I've
made all these changes - and kind of forgotten that I had to do them because
Microsoft should have delivered Windows the way I want it! ;<)



And I forget that some folks don't do it my way. I don't think of my setup
as "unusual" in any way.

Sorry to disagree, but anything other than the default is always very
unusual. The great majority of users of almost any software don't even
know there are choices other than the default.

 

[Char Jackson]

The single-click option is one of those most-basic Folder Options that I do
each time I install or re-install Windows. I've been doing it for so long
that I forget that it's not the default. And I'm amazed that it's not done
"instinctively" by every experienced Windows user. Especially those more
sophisticated users who frequent these newsgroups. ;^}

Seriously? You mentioned possible data loss several times, (to two
files rather than one), as well as generally inconsistent behavior,
and you have to ask why more people don't enable it?

When were these "Folder options" first offered? Win95? Earlier? That's
when they became "second nature" to me. ;^}

My first order of business after getting the new Windows installed is Folder
Options. Show extensions, show hidden files, etc., about a half-dozen items
here. Then set IE's Internet Options to clear the cache when I exit IE, and
to put the TIF on a second HDD... And set the deeply-buried option to NOT
"Automatically restart" on System failure. Within less than an hour, I've
made all these changes - and kind of forgotten that I had to do them because
Microsoft should have delivered Windows the way I want it! ;<)

And I forget that some folks don't do it my way. I don't think of my setup
as "unusual" in any way.

In Message-ID: <[email protected]>
you said, "I can't make this happen on demand and, when it does
happen, I'm too rushed and frustrated to investigate."

After all this, we hear that you've intentionally enabled the option
in question, so one mystery is finally solved, (but you sure did muddy
the waters for a bit!), and another mystery raises its head. Since you
have the option enabled, why doesn't 'hover to select' happen for you
consistently?

And finally, after hearing of your frustration with this feature, it
should be no surprise to learn that almost no one enables that
feature, and indeed the only surprise is why you put up with its
quirky and admittedly dangerous behavior.

 

[Bob I]

Windows DOES increment filename.
Proof,

1) r-click desktop,
2) select new,
3) select some file type to be created,
4) observe filename assigned by Windows
5) repeat steps 1-4

 

[Metspitzer]

Windows DOES increment filename.
Proof,

1) r-click desktop,
2) select new,
3) select some file type to be created,
4) observe filename assigned by Windows
5) repeat steps 1-4

That works.
Thanks
I was doing it wrong

 

[Bob I]

That works.
Thanks
I was doing it wrong

NP YW!