Windows problems

[Gene E. Bloch]

Ken started with big machines

He said he started with the IBM 1401. It was *physically* big - like the
size of two or three washing machines - but your modern Casio wrist watch
probably has more computing power

I don't recall the numbers with anything approaching precision (I started
on the 7090 and never programmed a 1401), but it was something like 64
different opcodes and 2048 bytes of memory. I don't recall the cycle time
(clock speeds were too slow in those days to be given in MHz - and I'm only
exaggerating a little bit when I say that).

My friend KO coded the 1401 directly in machine code (which was actually
BCD characters, IIRC). He amazed me.

 

[Char Jackson]

I stood two feet away and watched it done. Plugged the Mac into the router,
no server info, just the e-mail address (and yes, perhaps the password).
That was it, the software either knew everything it needed to know about the
ISP or instantly found it online. That was slick.

I'd have to see it to believe it.

 

[SC Tom]

*** Replies in-line

MS seems to want to make sure OE stays away. I've been using OE in XP
Mode, but today I updated to Explorer 8 for the XP installation. This
resulted in me being unable to enter text with OE--I could read mail or
Usenet posts, but I could not respond. So I uninstalled Explorer
8--shazam, OE worked again. That's an odd coincidence, isn't it?

I was looking at T-Bird for mail and news until I realized OE was still
viable in XP Mode, now MS appears to want to turn off that option.


We all had that option in the past, so far as I'm aware I could have used
Thunderbird or Agent or whatever I wished with XP. I used OE because it
was convenient and it worked fine for me. But now I have no choice but to
make other arrangements, and that is like buying a car that comes without
a radio and being told that's a positive step because now I can choose any
brand of radio I want. It strikes me that not having to go looking for a
radio was kind of a nice feature.

*** I agree, OE was convenient, and I still use it on my XP box. But I
disagree on the car analogy- if I had been offered a free radio of my choice
when I bought a car, I sure as heck wouldn't have chosen many of the ones I
got

(more below)

I tried Windows Live and didn't like it, I've never liked web mail and
that seems to be all Live is. Somebody else posted that I don't need to
use Hotmail for Windows Live, I'd like to learn more about how to use
Windows Live without opening a Hotmail account. I considered buying
Outlook until I learned it doesn't have a news reader (something MS avoids
mentioning). In fact I e-mailed MS to ask about that and got a reply that
said Outlook 2007 does news, but no admission that Outlook 2010 (the
version I had asked about) does not do news.

*** You don't need a Hotmail account to use Windows Live Mail. I use WLM on
my Win7 notebook, and while it's not OE6, I can live with it. If you want,
you can customize the colors, etc. to make it look a bit closer to OE. The
behavior to me is virtually the same, and was as soon as it was installed.
I'm not sure if the washed-out colors are caused by Win7 or WLM, but it can
be somewhat fixed.

To set up an email account is virtually the same as setting one up in OE.
Just enter your account info under Tools, Accounts. My mail account is
through my ISP, and I have never in my life set up a Hotmail account, either
through the mail clients that I've used or on the 'net.

 

[KCB]

I tried Windows Live and didn't like it, I've never liked web mail and
that seems to be all Live is. Somebody else posted that I don't need to
use Hotmail for Windows Live, I'd like to learn more about how to use
Windows Live without opening a Hotmail account. I considered buying
Outlook until I learned it doesn't have a news reader (something MS avoids
mentioning). In fact I e-mailed MS to ask about that and got a reply that
said Outlook 2007 does news, but no admission that Outlook 2010 (the
version I had asked about) does not do news.

I think you're confusing Windows Live Mail with Windows Live. Windows Live
Mail is not web mail. It is a program, like OE, that is installed on your
computer for email, news, calendar, rss feeds, etc. It can be used with any
email account or accounts. You don't need a Hotmail account. It is
available here:
http://explore.live.com/windows-live-mail

Also, I have OE set up in XP mode, along with IE8, and have no problems with
it. So, your issue must be caused by something else, or a combination of
some other things.

 

[Ken Blake]

He said he started with the IBM 1401. It was *physically* big - like the
size of two or three washing machines -

Yes, about the size of a big refrigerator.

but your modern Casio wrist watch
probably has more computing power

I don't recall the numbers with anything approaching precision (I started
on the 7090 and never programmed a 1401), but it was something like 64
different opcodes

I can't remember how many there were.

and 2048 bytes of memory.

There were several different sizes, but none of them were binary. To
the best of my memory, they were

1400
2000
4000 (the first one I worked on)
8000
12000 (the last size we had)
16000 (the size I always yearned for)

I don't recall the cycle time
(clock speeds were too slow in those days to be given in MHz - and I'm only
exaggerating a little bit when I say that).

11.5 milliseconds, I think.

My friend KO coded the 1401 directly in machine code (which was actually
BCD characters, IIRC). He amazed me.

I did a little in machine language, but most was in SPS and autocoder
(the assembler languages of the 1401). The next machine I programmed
after the 1401 was a 7080, and that was my first use of a high-level
language--COBOL.

 

[LouB]

Yes, about the size of a big refrigerator.




I can't remember how many there were.




There were several different sizes, but none of them were binary. To
the best of my memory, they were

1400
2000
4000 (the first one I worked on)
8000
12000 (the last size we had)
16000 (the size I always yearned for)





11.5 milliseconds, I think.




I did a little in machine language, but most was in SPS and autocoder
(the assembler languages of the 1401). The next machine I programmed
after the 1401 was a 7080, and that was my first use of a high-level
language--COBOL.

I programmed the 7080 in autocoder and a little machine code

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Yes, about the size of a big refrigerator.




I can't remember how many there were.




There were several different sizes, but none of them were binary. To
the best of my memory, they were

1400
2000
4000 (the first one I worked on)
8000
12000 (the last size we had)
16000 (the size I always yearned for)





11.5 milliseconds, I think.




I did a little in machine language, but most was in SPS and autocoder
(the assembler languages of the 1401). The next machine I programmed
after the 1401 was a 7080, and that was my first use of a high-level
language--COBOL.

Thanks for the update. It's informative.

But I wonder - did you mean the cycle time was 11.5 milliseconds, or 11.5
microseconds?

Even the latter was hardly lightspeed, even in the early 60's

 

[Ken Blake]

Thanks for the update. It's informative.

You're welcome. Glad to help.

But I wonder - did you mean the cycle time was 11.5 milliseconds, or 11.5
microseconds?

I thought I meant milliseconds, but I don't remember for sure.

 

[Ken Blake]

I thought I meant milliseconds, but I don't remember for sure.

I was wrong. It's microseconds. See
http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401GuidePosterV9.html

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I stood two feet away and watched it done. Plugged the Mac into the
router, no server info, just the e-mail address (and yes, perhaps
the password). That was it, the software either knew everything it
needed to know about the ISP or instantly found it online. That was
slick.

I, likewise, have seen a Mac auto-configure an email client with only
the email address and password. Of course, what it is doing is trying
all of the standard imap/pop/smtp server names and ports and security
settings until it finds one that works (let's see, try
mail.ispname.com on port 110 no SSL - nope, ok, try pop.ispname.com
using POP3 on port 110 no SSL - nope, ok, try ...). It doesn't always
work, but it does in the vast majority of typical home user scenarios.

Configuring internet access is usually just as trivial, if not more
so - come on, when was the last time you ran into a typical home
internet connection that needed anything more than plugging in and
letting DHCP do its thing? ISPs like it that way because it makes it
easier for them as well - cuts down on technical support calls.

 

[relic]

I was wrong. It's microseconds. See
http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401GuidePosterV9.html

My first computer support exposure (late 50's) had a 60 microsecond cycle.
It was very fast for those days.
http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/NCR-304-1957.htm

 

[DGDevin]

I, likewise, have seen a Mac auto-configure an email client with only the
email address and password. Of course, what it is doing is trying all of
the standard imap/pop/smtp server names and ports and security settings
until it finds one that works (let's see, try mail.ispname.com on port 110
no SSL - nope, ok, try pop.ispname.com using POP3 on port 110 no SSL -
nope, ok, try ...). It doesn't always work, but it does in the vast
majority of typical home user scenarios.

If that's what it does it sure did it fast, like as quickly as it takes to
describe. I wonder if it actually calls home to Apple and gets whatever the
correct settings are?

Configuring internet access is usually just as trivial, if not more so -
come on, when was the last time you ran into a typical home internet
connection that needed anything more than plugging in and letting DHCP do
its thing? ISPs like it that way because it makes it easier for them as
well - cuts down on technical support calls.

Actually the last two times I've set up e-mail on a PC I've had my ISP's
helpful online support staff makes mistakes which I had to correct. Most of
them seem to be reading from a script and it doesn't take much to confuse
them.

 

[DGDevin]

I think you're confusing Windows Live Mail with Windows Live. Windows
Live Mail is not web mail. It is a program, like OE, that is installed on
your computer for email, news, calendar, rss feeds, etc. It can be used
with any email account or accounts.

Well boy oh boy did I have that wrong! I now have mail and news set up in
Windows Live and it's working okay (although the WL auto-setup for my mail
account made a mistake concerning the SMTP server I had to fix). So far I
can't get it to auto-expand all threads when reading news, but that isn't
the end of the world. And for some reason it chose Port 25 for outgoing
mail which I suspect will cause problems with spam filtering; WL is tagging
some of my own messages as spam. I'll have to contact my ISP and see why
the port they had me using with OE6 won't work.

Also, I have OE set up in XP mode, along with IE8, and have no problems with
it. So, your issue must be caused by something else, or a combination of
some other things.

If I continue to be satisfied with WL for mail and news it won't matter.
I'd like to stop using XP Mode for anything if possible, but that will
require more tinkering. Thanks again for steering me in the right
direction.

 

[SC Tom]

Well boy oh boy did I have that wrong! I now have mail and news set up in
Windows Live and it's working okay (although the WL auto-setup for my mail
account made a mistake concerning the SMTP server I had to fix). So far I
can't get it to auto-expand all threads when reading news, but that isn't
the end of the world. And for some reason it chose Port 25 for outgoing
mail which I suspect will cause problems with spam filtering; WL is
tagging some of my own messages as spam. I'll have to contact my ISP and
see why the port they had me using with OE6 won't work.


If I continue to be satisfied with WL for mail and news it won't matter.
I'd like to stop using XP Mode for anything if possible, but that will
require more tinkering. Thanks again for steering me in the right
direction.

Mine is set up through port 25, and I don't have much trouble with spam
filtering. Of course, I have a lot of the rules that I used in OE6 active
here, too.
To auto-expand all threads, go to Tools, Options, and the Read tab. Check
the box next to Automatically Expand Grouped Messages.

 

[DGDevin]

Mine is set up through port 25, and I don't have much trouble with spam
filtering. Of course, I have a lot of the rules that I used in OE6 active
here, too.

I meant problems with my mail being filtered elsewhere, I'll have to see if
anyone has problems getting my mail. I don't know if Port 25 is still
considered a spam vector, maybe the spam industry has moved on what with
botnets and bulletproof servers in Russia and China. I don't get much spam
of the traditional sort anymore, ISP filtering seems to be working pretty
well.

To auto-expand all threads, go to Tools, Options, and the Read tab. Check
the box next to Automatically Expand Grouped Messages.

Yeah, don't know how I missed that, pretty much the same as it always was.
Thanks.

I'm starting to warm up to W7, still have a couple of issues to fix and then
take another run at getting some old software to work. I guess I'm
committed now....

 

[Carroll Robbins]

I don't know if Port 25 is still considered a spam vector

Port 25 is not a spam vector and never has been. It is the standard port
you send email to. Without it the email system would collapse. It can use
authentication or not. Now, more and more mail is using SSL on port 465.

 

[DGDevin]

Port 25 is not a spam vector and never has been. It is the standard port
you send email to. Without it the email system would collapse. It can use
authentication or not. Now, more and more mail is using SSL on port 465.

Huh, well my aging memory recalls anti-spam forums in years past echoing
with cries that if only certain ISPs would block Port 25 blah blah blah the
spam load would be greatly diminished for reasons I won't pretend to have
the technical knowledge to understand (I had the impression it allowed
people to do an end run around their ISP's mail servers, or something). And
when I set up OE in XP Mode last week my ISP told me to use a different
port. Not a big deal, if it works then I'm happy.

 

[DGDevin]

I'd have to see it to believe it.

Well, Windows Live did the same thing for me earlier today except it make a
mistake I had to fix on the outgoing mail server. Apparently it has become
standard-issue.

 

[Char Jackson]

Well, Windows Live did the same thing for me earlier today except it make a
mistake I had to fix on the outgoing mail server. Apparently it has become
standard-issue.

First of all, you insist on calling it Windows Live when it's Windows
Live Mail, a totally different program. Second, you prove my point
when you say you had to fix something that the autoconfigure missed.
Third, savvy users will want to configure their (multiple?) email
accounts manually so as to get things right the first time. But maybe
all of that is just me. I'm glad it worked out for you.

 

[DGDevin]

First of all, you insist on calling it Windows Live when it's Windows
Live Mail, a totally different program.

Hammer, mallet--if you know what tool I'm asking for why be picky about the
name?

Second, you prove my point
when you say you had to fix something that the autoconfigure missed.

Actually I'm proving my point, as my wife's new Mac got everything right
first try, but I had to fix Windows 7's attempt at setting up my e-mail.

Third, savvy users will want to configure their (multiple?) email
accounts manually so as to get things right the first time. But maybe
all of that is just me. I'm glad it worked out for you.

I actually prefer to do it manually so I know what the settings should look
like if and when I have to mess with them later. That's how I recognized
what this Windows auto-configuration program had missed. But I still think
it's slick when software can set itself up properly.