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B

Bob I

IIRC, the drive just counted the sectors, starting after the hole passed
the photocell. But 3-1/2" floppies don't even have a hole.

Hard drives identify the sector by a code embedded in the overhead data
portion of each sector. It's possible that some soft sector floppies did
this; I don't know. I know it was always true of hard drives, because it
was possible to reorder the sectors on a hard drive to improve
performance, although I think all the improvement I experienced in
trying it was due to the placebo effect.
Yes, you could adjust the adjust interleave on pre-IDE drives, the idea
was to set the rate the data came off the platter to match what the
computer could shuffle off to memory. For instance if you had a 1:1
interleave then adjacent sectors were read, and you would fill the
buffer and then the drive would get ahead of the CPU and then you would
have the case where you had to wait for the rotating platter to come all
the way around to the next sector to start reading again, and then the
CPU would be waiting. SO, the slowest CPU may be 1:3 interleave for the
fastest data transfer for a particular drive, a faster one would be 1:2
and a high end CPU may be able to handle 1:1. So anyway if you had built
a bunch of identical PC's and then you could test one and set the
interleave for the rest of them, as long the drive and CPU stayed the
same you were good. On the other hand, if you started messing with the
memory refresh cycle timing in the CPU, you could have the CPU cranked
up, but then you might want to adjust the interleave to a 1:2 or 1:1 to
get the data in and out faster.
 
H

H-Man

Flash sticks are not susceptible to magnets though it would be
interesting to take one through an MRI scanner.

Steve
Thank Steve.

Apparently that was done (MRI test) and the drive passed. I have no
reference to that but I do recall reading about it. There are articles and
posts across the internet indicating that their flash drive was damaged by
a magnetic field. I once had a thumb drive that had an IBM microdrive in
it, this would be susceptible to magnets. Other than that I think one would
have to use some logic and understanding of the underlying technologies
before blindly believing what one reads on the internet. At the very least
put it to your own test and see if it is repeatable. Other than that, it's
just cold fusion at this point.
 
P

Paul

Bob said:
Yes, you could adjust the adjust interleave on pre-IDE drives, the idea
was to set the rate the data came off the platter to match what the
computer could shuffle off to memory. For instance if you had a 1:1
interleave then adjacent sectors were read, and you would fill the
buffer and then the drive would get ahead of the CPU and then you would
have the case where you had to wait for the rotating platter to come all
the way around to the next sector to start reading again, and then the
CPU would be waiting. SO, the slowest CPU may be 1:3 interleave for the
fastest data transfer for a particular drive, a faster one would be 1:2
and a high end CPU may be able to handle 1:1. So anyway if you had built
a bunch of identical PC's and then you could test one and set the
interleave for the rest of them, as long the drive and CPU stayed the
same you were good. On the other hand, if you started messing with the
memory refresh cycle timing in the CPU, you could have the CPU cranked
up, but then you might want to adjust the interleave to a 1:2 or 1:1 to
get the data in and out faster.
When we were designing computers at work, we actually had one generation
of hardware that was slow enough, that changing the interleave paid off.
We had some kind of disk, that this was the kind of interleave that
worked best.

1--4--7--2--5--8--3--6--9
^ ^ ^

Our controller was slow enough, that it could not handle back to back
sectors, and couldn't read the sector header fast enough to make a
decision. With some sector times in between, the hardware could be
"armed" and waiting when the next one showed up.

If the interleave was set to 1:1 via the format command, our controller
couldn't see sector 2 until it was ready and waiting one rotation later,
which was a lot slower. If you "blow the interleave", it becomes
blindingly obvious when running a benchmark. So using our slow
hardware, and formatting with a 1:1 interleave pattern, resulted in
significantly slower transfer rates.

1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--1--2
^ ^

Once we got past that generation of hardware, interleave was never
an issue again. The generation of hard disk controller I worked
on, was 1:1, and was ready for the next sector right after the
write splice between sectors passed by. (The write splice,
is the fuzzy bit between sectors, where the clock phasing
is screwed up.) And they're all fast enough now, you
never have to worry about this stuff any more.

1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--1--2
^ ^ ^

Our system used so-called "intelligent" controllers (disk board
has its own processors), and only the floppy interface was super-crude.
Our floppy design was so bad, you couldn't use the computer for anything
else, if reading or writing the floppy. In fact, it was recommended to
just take your hand off the mouse, while working with a floppy :)
Start a copy, and walk away. The floppy driver was written in assembler,
with wait loops counting processor cycles - no multitasking allowed.
Fun times...

To get around that, the next generation of floppy, was a SCSI or
SASI design (I never really cared to inquire about the details), with
its own controller board strapped to the floppy drive. A wee bit more
expensive to buy. And then, you could multitask while working with
the floppy. No more assembler code.

My job was an excellent education, even if the stuff we
worked on never amounted to much.

I wouldn't even have known what an interleave factor was, if
it wasn't for that early stuff.

Paul
 
H

H-Man

I am not going to argue with you but I know that you can mess up even a
hard drive with a magnet.
That's right because a HDD uses magnetic media.
And a pocketful of even weak magnets around a
flash drive can easily mess it up, I would have thought.
Nope, won't work, not magnetic media.
Why don't you
put your idea to a real life test? I've got a nice strong magnet you can
rest on your hard drive and your USB stick/s! I have, have you?

I have just written about degaussing elsewhere on this very thread
actually. Just look a couple of lines above. But to be honest I'd be
very careful playing around with magnets next to HD drives and other SS
drives.
HDD and SSD drives are completely different and use different media
internally. They should not be treated as the same with this respect.
Better safe than sorry. But if you are absolutely sure that a
strong magnetic field won't mess up your stick, why don't you put your
idea to the test?!
I have, so I am speaking both from a thorough understanding of the
underlying technologies involved and from first hand experience.

Very good then, let me offer an illustration. Trying to erase flash memory
with a magnet is like trying to erase a vinyl or wax LP (per your
reference) with a magnet, it doesn't work because they are not magnetic
media. Erasing a hard drive (traditional rotating platter) or a magnetic
tape or a magnetic cylinder with a magnet (magnetic field) works because
this is magnetic media. You can't erase a CD or DVD (or BluRay disc) with a
magnet either as this is optical media. Make sense?
 
B

Brian Matthews

Thank Steve.

Apparently that was done (MRI test) and the drive passed. I have no
reference to that but I do recall reading about it. There are articles and
posts across the internet indicating that their flash drive was damaged by
a magnetic field. I once had a thumb drive that had an IBM microdrive in
it, this would be susceptible to magnets. Other than that I think one would
have to use some logic and understanding of the underlying technologies
before blindly believing what one reads on the internet. At the very least
put it to your own test and see if it is repeatable. Other than that, it's
just cold fusion at this point.

A little OT, but I once sent a thumb drive (Crucial 4GB) thru the
washer AND dryer. It still had the data on it and it still works to
this day. I know no magnets were involved, but it amazed me that the
drive even worked!

More OT, when I recycle an old HDD, I usually reformat it to destroy
all the data on it. Then I write other data to it and fill it up and
erase it again. Paranoid? Maybe, but I don't want anyone to access any
sensitive information on it. I always wondered if a really strong
magnet would accomplish the same thing, it sure would be faster.

Brian
 
H

H-Man

A little OT, but I once sent a thumb drive (Crucial 4GB) thru the
washer AND dryer. It still had the data on it and it still works to
this day. I know no magnets were involved, but it amazed me that the
drive even worked!
They are tough, aren't they. And the next one you look at sideways and it
fails. Who knows, but for the most part they put up with a lot of abuse.
More OT, when I recycle an old HDD, I usually reformat it to destroy
all the data on it. Then I write other data to it and fill it up and
erase it again. Paranoid? Maybe, but I don't want anyone to access any
sensitive information on it. I always wondered if a really strong
magnet would accomplish the same thing, it sure would be faster.
Formatting alone doesn't actually erase anything, but filling it up with
new data does. There's much said about forensic data recovery, but as far
as my research on the topic shows, with newer drives, if the data is
overwritten even only once, recovery of the original data is impossible.
So, I'd say you're good as long as the 'other data' is either random or
meaningless (unimportant) to you.


I've never tried a magnet on a hard drive, but I'd guess it would have a
strong magnet to erase multiple stacked platters. What you are doing is
probably more secure.
 

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