Win 8, first impressions.

[Muad'Dib]

Have people never seen an Apple store and observed how popular is the iPad?

As popular as they are, they are only productive for certain things, a
REAL desktop has yet, nor will be soon, be replaced for REAL
productivity, particularly in a business environmental atmosphere. Can
you say CAD, CGI and the like being replaced in a tablet atmosphere? I
think not.

Cheers

 

[Muad'Dib]

K.C's feelings were mine exactly. I was ready to throw my sister's laptop
out the window when I attempted to see what programs were on it and couldn't
locate a familiar path to them and meandered for 5 minutes through the
jungle of non-intuitive grafitti. However, downloading Clasic Shell made
Win8 bearable again.

Ya have to Effing type most everything in the search bit. Like I wanna
have to type every time I want to find something, when it was so easy to
just use the menu. Morons..

G'day

 

[Muad'Dib]

well, you certainly must be prepared for a steep learning cure but there
are real improvements in performance. Windows 8 is faster to start up
and boosts battery life. It's also the most secure O/S Microsoft has
produced. You can't lose anything on your computer with Search Charm
but it can become a chore to look for everything.

To be fair, it is a bit of a mess, even for experienced computer users.

But I don't think there will be any turning back as tablets are
outselling PCs.

It is spunky enough, even in a VM, security, well we'll see. So far
EVERY MS OS release has NOT been all that secure. Yes maybe more secure
then the last, but a risk at best. I have had to clean so many
supposedly secure MS PC's it is absolutely amazing. I have very little
faith, Win 8 is any different. LOL ..And the mired of programs needed to
try and keep it secure and clean is completely laughable.

Again I say, a tablet is ok on the go, but for REAL computing, and
computing POWER the desktop has NOT been replaced, nor will be any time
soon. Can you say CGI, CAD, and the like? Tablets are not close to that
powerful, not yet anyway. Sure, Facebooking, Tweeting, checking the
weather, simple shopping, email etc, is doable, not REAL computing. Who
cares how popular tablets have become. For the shallow masses it makes
do, for the real computing world, they are just toys. Reminds me of MP3,
that substandard of sound is so well accepted, and is so inferior to
true fidelity. Yet the masses think it is so great, yet it actually
sucks. They have settled for less. Tablets, while convenient, are so
inferior to powerful desktops, yet people think they are the be-all.
Laughable, they as of now, are mostly a conversant on-the-go solution.

G'day

 

[NY]

It is spunky enough, even in a VM, security, well we'll see. So far EVERY
MS OS release has NOT been all that secure. Yes maybe more secure then the
last, but a risk at best. I have had to clean so many supposedly secure MS
PC's it is absolutely amazing. I have very little faith, Win 8 is any
different. LOL ..And the mired of programs needed to try and keep it
secure and clean is completely laughable.

Again I say, a tablet is ok on the go, but for REAL computing, and
computing POWER the desktop has NOT been replaced, nor will be any time
soon. Can you say CGI, CAD, and the like? Tablets are not close to that
powerful, not yet anyway. Sure, Facebooking, Tweeting, checking the
weather, simple shopping, email etc, is doable, not REAL computing. Who
cares how popular tablets have become. For the shallow masses it makes do,
for the real computing world, they are just toys. Reminds me of MP3, that
substandard of sound is so well accepted, and is so inferior to true
fidelity. Yet the masses think it is so great, yet it actually sucks. They
have settled for less. Tablets, while convenient, are so inferior to
powerful desktops, yet people think they are the be-all. Laughable, they
as of now, are mostly a conversant on-the-go solution.

Well said. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good. For ease of use
for a long period of time, I have not found anything to beat a large (eg
20") screen, a full-size keyboard and a proper mouse. OK, so a laptop is
usable for a short time, but the keyboard is small and I find touch pads are
a pain because they have such a small usable area so you either have to turn
the scale factor down or else move your finger over the pad several times to
move the pointer from one side of the screen to the other. And modern
laptops have those horrible glossy screens that reflect the windows, lights,
yourself.

Likewise a mobile phone is fine for occasional texting or emailing or web
browsing but it's no substitute for a full-size computer. On-screen
keyboards are streets ahead of the old numeric keypad where each digit also
gives you several letters, but it's no use for serious typing of more than a
sentence or so. And that's judging purely on usability, without taking into
account performance.

The problem is that the world is going down one route (desktop -> laptop ->
tablet/notebook) and it's difficult to be different from the modern trend. I
don't want a laptop with a glossy screen (I'll put up with videos being a
little less vibrant on an etched screen). I don't want to have a touch
screen because it means laying the screen horizontally to be comfortable to
use and that means that it reflects overhead lights and my hand obscures
part of the screen.

A tablet that was connected to a full-size screen, with a full size
keyboard, would do, so you touch the tablet screen but look at the full size
screen.

Like your example of MP3, it's taking something that's great for certain
situations, and forcing everyone to use it for all other purposes, instead
of realising that you choose your equipment according to what you want to
use it for.

 

[Moe DeLoughan]

It's a shame that PC vendors are (AFAIK) not allowed to supply
preinstalled Win 7 as an alternative to Win 8.

The major pc suppliers (Dell, etc) may not be able or willing to do
that, but you can have a pc built by a local shop nearly anywhere, and
specify your choice of OS.

If people insist on going to Best Buy and their ilk for their
computing needs, they deserve what they get stuck with.

 

[James Silverton]

As popular as they are, they are only productive for certain things, a
REAL desktop has yet, nor will be soon, be replaced for REAL
productivity, particularly in a business environmental atmosphere. Can
you say CAD, CGI and the like being replaced in a tablet atmosphere? I
think not.

I would mention that the iPad craze has been going a year or so. It will
end perhaps, since Apple no longer has Jobs but the Ipad with a plug-in
keyboard can replace the PC for a lot of tasks. I suspect Apple's
resistance to jailbreaking may be its ultimate downfall.

 

[Johnny]

Yes yes yes. They've made improvements to it. That's great. If that's
all they'd done, Windows 8 would be fantastic.

But... they've also "broken" it by making major usability changes to it
- bigger than any change since Windows 3 -> Windows 95. And that's what
most people will remember: can anyone who has experience with any/all
previous version of Windows still use it without major unlearning and
relearning? It's like MS deciding that a car steering wheel is better on
the roof and the pedals operated by the hands, and saying "don't worry,
you'll get used to it and prefer it given a bit of time".

It was the height of arrogance for Microsoft to change the
user-interface like this, without providing an easy way of reverting to
classic mode. They should have said "We've made what we think are
dramatic improvements to the user interface and *we* think you'll prefer
them, but in case you don't, this is what to make Windows 8 work like
Windows 7 but with all the none-UI improvements like performance and
security". Also, the assumption that users of desktop/laptop PCs
(keyboard, mouse) would prefer a tablet/phone/touchscreen UI is
mind-blowingly naive and arrogant.

I suspect that few existing users of Windows will *choose* Windows 8;
that the only sales will be grudge purchases because people need a
new/additional PC and can *only* get Windows 8 on it because Windows 7
is not offered by the vendor. Is Windows 7 still available in CD form
(ie not preinstalled on a PC) or have MS withdrawn those from sale as
well now?

Thanks goodness for the various downloads like Classic Shell which make
Windows 8 sufficient like the UI for Windows 7 to be usable.

I tried to reply the other day, but didn't realize that Thunderbird
changed the way you post to newsgroups. You now use Followup, instead
of reply.

Yes Microsoft still sells Windows 7, I just bought a copy from the
Microsoft store. I will not use Windows 8, and told them so in a chat
session.

It looks like the people at Microsoft are trying to force Windows users
to use a computer they way they want it used.

 

[Wolf K]

On 3/12/2013 10:41 AM, James Silverton wrote:
[...]

I would mention that the iPad craze has been going a year or so. It will
end perhaps, since Apple no longer has Jobs but the Ipad with a plug-in
keyboard can replace the PC for a lot of tasks. I suspect Apple's
resistance to jailbreaking may be its ultimate downfall.

Having used an iPad for almost a year now, I can say that it's quite
good for the few things it's designed for. Via VPN I access restricted
e-mail on an intranet, I can check personal mail (but rarely do), it's
OK for casual surfing, checking weather forecasts, etc. It can be an
e-book reader, it's an OK camera for casual snapshots, it's OK for video
calls, in fact it's OK for the most common tasks.

But the typical smart phone is now just as good for most of those tasks,
so what does the iPad offer? Not much. Reduced cost for data, mostly.
And of course it weighs less than a laptop or netbook. With appropriate
apps, more can be done, eg, a musician acquaintance uses his to
collaborate on composition with his band.

But since the iPad is deliberately limited as a computer, for serious
computing it's at best fourth rate.

 

[Gordon]

Looked at friends PC running Win 8, first time I've seen it.
Started up, first thing i thought, where the &*!£'s the Start button, wanted
to see what programmes were installed. Thought hit the Win key, that'll
bring up the programme list but it brought up a screen full of big squares.
Had to open Explorer then 2 Program folders just to see what was on the PC.
I thought some sort of Windows corruption or someone had been messing about
with settings but discovered this is the way it's supposed to be! Felt like
throwing it out the window!
Had been considering dual booting with the 90 day evaluation version to see
what it's like but won't waste my time on it now.
I know some of you will say that it can be made to function like Win 7 but
then what's the point of it.

Kenny CArgill

I upgraded our two home computers to Windows 8, last fall, and after a
bit of learning and adaptation, I like it. This is sort of like
learning to drive a new car...it takes a while to learn where all the
controls and push buttons are but once one works through this learning
phase the overall setup is MUCH better...Faster...More stable...Easier
to use, etc. Gordon

 

[SC Tom]

I upgraded our two home computers to Windows 8, last fall, and after a
bit of learning and adaptation, I like it. This is sort of like
learning to drive a new car...it takes a while to learn where all the
controls and push buttons are but once one works through this learning
phase the overall setup is MUCH better...Faster...More stable...Easier
to use, etc. Gordon

I like it well enough the way I have it set up, using a Win7 interface. I
don't know if it's MUCH better, but it is somewhat faster on my Acer laptop
than the original Win7 HP (x64). The laptop is fairly new (less than 9
months from manufacture), so there are Win8 drivers for it. There's even a
BIOS update to UEFI, but that's not for upgrades, so I'll stick with BIOS.
I've heard others also say that it was more stable (I'm assuming "than
Win7"), but I never found Win7 to be unstable at all, so I can't make that
statement, but I can say it's just as stable as my Win7 was (and is, on my
other PC).
And as far as easier to use, well, I tried to like the MUI, I really did.
Even printed out the list of keyboard shortcuts, and all like that, but I
still found it to be a royal pain. But then, I would have rather stayed with
DOS Shell than use Win3.1

 

[Muad'Dib]

Well said. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good. For ease of
use for a long period of time, I have not found anything to beat a large
(eg 20") screen, a full-size keyboard and a proper mouse. OK, so a
laptop is usable for a short time, but the keyboard is small and I find
touch pads are a pain because they have such a small usable area so you
either have to turn the scale factor down or else move your finger over
the pad several times to move the pointer from one side of the screen to
the other. And modern laptops have those horrible glossy screens that
reflect the windows, lights, yourself.

Likewise a mobile phone is fine for occasional texting or emailing or
web browsing but it's no substitute for a full-size computer. On-screen
keyboards are streets ahead of the old numeric keypad where each digit
also gives you several letters, but it's no use for serious typing of
more than a sentence or so. And that's judging purely on usability,
without taking into account performance.

The problem is that the world is going down one route (desktop -> laptop
-> tablet/notebook) and it's difficult to be different from the modern
trend. I don't want a laptop with a glossy screen (I'll put up with
videos being a little less vibrant on an etched screen). I don't want to
have a touch screen because it means laying the screen horizontally to
be comfortable to use and that means that it reflects overhead lights
and my hand obscures part of the screen.

A tablet that was connected to a full-size screen, with a full size
keyboard, would do, so you touch the tablet screen but look at the full
size screen.

Like your example of MP3, it's taking something that's great for certain
situations, and forcing everyone to use it for all other purposes,
instead of realising that you choose your equipment according to what
you want to use it for.

Ah, very well said NY. I could be misunderstood by what I have said in
this thread. I do like using my smart phone, and a tablet for on-the-go
things, but like you said, they are cumbersome to try and do real work.
I agree about laptops as well, I use mine for casual use only, as it too
is nothing like having a full sized keyboard, and 20+" monitor. I
actually don't have all that much need for the laptop, having a smart
phone and tablet for casual use. The good part about the laptop is
faster processor, way more storage, real programs not "apps," and better
screen size.

As far as win 8 goes, I'm not impressed that they didn't just include a
choice at boot, to use the new interface, or go classic. I didn't have a
lot of trouble with it as I have heard many complain, (Family, friends,
acquaintances), using it as a desktop OS on their new computers. It just
isn't that great using a mouse, no complete menus, etc. On a touch
interface, which is what it really is designed for, was ok and more fun
to use but really, having to start a search then type in order to get to
the control panel and such? Not impressed with that either.

Cheers

 

[James]

I tried to reply the other day, but didn't realize that Thunderbird
changed the way you post to newsgroups. You now use Followup, instead
of reply.

Yes Microsoft still sells Windows 7, I just bought a copy from the
Microsoft store. I will not use Windows 8, and told them so in a chat
session.

It looks like the people at Microsoft are trying to force Windows users
to use a computer they way they want it used.

Then with Windows 8 MS is sounding more and more like Apple.

 

[...winston]

If Win8 started up, then the Win key wasn't necessary to see the 'screen full of big squares' ...i.e. you would have already been
there.

Like any other operating system...and item on those big squares called Control Panel is available (or just start typing the letters
of Control Panel) which has a link to Programs and Features (like Win7 to view installed programs).

The 90 day evaluation version (Enterprise) is primarily intended for developers.

From what I've learned, MSFT for obvious reasons would like as many as possible to upgrade to Win8, but has no objection to using
Win7 until the end of its lifecycle (quite a few years in the future).


--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps


"Kenny Cargill" wrote in message
Looked at friends PC running Win 8, first time I've seen it.
Started up, first thing i thought, where the &*!£'s the Start button, wanted
to see what programmes were installed. Thought hit the Win key, that'll
bring up the programme list but it brought up a screen full of big squares.
Had to open Explorer then 2 Program folders just to see what was on the PC.
I thought some sort of Windows corruption or someone had been messing about
with settings but discovered this is the way it's supposed to be! Felt like
throwing it out the window!
Had been considering dual booting with the 90 day evaluation version to see
what it's like but won't waste my time on it now.
I know some of you will say that it can be made to function like Win 7 but
then what's the point of it.

Kenny CArgill

 

[...winston]

"NY" wrote in message

It's a shame that PC vendors are (AFAIK) not allowed to supply preinstalled Win 7 as an alternative to Win 8.

Win8 Pro is the only o/s that confers/permits downgrade rights (to Win7 Pro) and the OEM (pc builder) is not required to supply the
o/s (some do, some don't, and some will if prodded). Downgrading to Win7 though is only part of the scheme - drivers and some
unique to Win7 may be required.

As long as pc builder's have a supply of Win7 they can install it when contractually permitted to do so (that ability may change
when a contract expires).

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Muad'Dib

Ya have to Effing type most everything in the search bit. Like I wanna
have to type every time I want to find something, when it was so easy
to just use the menu. Morons..

G'day

I tend to agree with you, I don't like using a search for everything -
I'm thinking of the help system in Office 2010, which is sort of a
(poor, since it doesn't have the advanced features) Google-type search,
AFAICT.

However, you must be prepared to answer the question: how, under the old
system, did you know which menu to go to for what you want?

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

It looks like the people at Microsoft are trying to force Windows users
to use a computer they way they want it used.

But haven't they always?

Then with Windows 8 MS is sounding more and more like Apple.

Hmm.

 

[Nil]

I tend to agree with you, I don't like using a search for
everything - I'm thinking of the help system in Office 2010, which
is sort of a (poor, since it doesn't have the advanced features)
Google-type search, AFAICT.

However, you must be prepared to answer the question: how, under
the old system, did you know which menu to go to for what you
want?

A simple menu system gets unwieldy after a certain size. Even if I
manually keep it organized (which can be a tedious housekeeping chore)
it can be hard to find stuff. I've grown to like Windows 7's Start |
Search function. OTOH, I have to remember the name of the program. If I
don't the old-style menu is still available. I think Windows 7's system
is an good, practical combination of both methods.

 

[Iceman]

Not yet they aren't. Netbooks did well too until the fad was over.
Tablets are fine for kids and cats but for real work, a PC is needed.

On a tablet you have to watch your fingers all the time.

 

[JJ]

Looked at friends PC running Win 8, first time I've seen it.
Started up, first thing i thought, where the &*!£'s the Start button,
wanted to see what programmes were installed. Thought hit the Win
key, that'll bring up the programme list but it brought up a screen
full of big squares. Had to open Explorer then 2 Program folders just
to see what was on the PC. I thought some sort of Windows corruption
or someone had been messing about with settings but discovered this is
the way it's supposed to be! Felt like throwing it out the window!
Had been considering dual booting with the 90 day evaluation version
to see what it's like but won't waste my time on it now.
I know some of you will say that it can be made to function like Win 7
but then what's the point of it.

Kenny CArgill

It's just like a fancy vending machine.
It's easy to use, yes. For new Windows users. But for power users, it's
really troublesome. When something went wrong, we had to go through
multiple screens just to get into safe mode (and the boss is already
staring at you impatiently).

They say it's faster, but that's just the UI that's more responsive. The
core overall performance may be in fact faster, but considering that
there are animations almost everywhere (especially if it's Metro),
there's no actual speed gain. Some program performance may actually
suffer because of it.

 

[mechanic]

But haven't they always?

Nah, it was Steve Jobs who used that approach.