New machine, old speakers

J

jbm

"choro" wrote in message
Hey jim, there really is no need to go into all this bother IF you set
it up right in the first place and have nothing crappy along the line,
that is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Choro, I posted what I did because it wasn't set up correctly. It is a store
bought HP computer, set up in the factory. The environment and mixer
controls were both switched off at set up. I did say "If your version of
Windows 7 was set up like mine was", which should have made it perfectly
clear it wasn't set up by me. I suggest you read the posts you reply to
properly before you start making idiotic comments like that.

jim
 
K

Ken Blake

There's an instrument (in Egypt, I think), called kanun, that looks a
little like a small hammer dulcimer, i.e., a bit like a piano w/o a
keyboard, where you play directly on the strings (by plucking, not
hammering, IIRC). It contains levers near the end of each string so you
can retune each string up or down by a quarter tone as needed.

As for whether it's true-tempered, I don't know, but probably not. I
didn't get close enough to look for that much detail. Although maybe the
levers mentioned above can also be used to implement the much smaller
corrections needed for true tempering.

I'm told that string players play the notes differently depending on
whether they're playing with well-tempered instruments, as in an
orchestra or with a piano, versus, say, a string quartet. In truth,
though, I don't fret much about the difference.

No levers, but the Japanese Koto (and the Chinese equivalent (I can't
remember what it's called) also lets you lean on the strings and raise
the pitch a little bit.

And you can also move the bridge on a string as you play it to
slightly vary the pitch.
 
B

Bob I

Is that the value you attach to a decent sound? You get a $10 amp?!
No, it's the user that kept the crap speakers from the old system that
needs to spend another 10 bucks. I'm perfectly happy with my setup, and
I certainly spent more than 10 bucks on it.
 
L

LouB

Bob said:
No, it's the user that kept the crap speakers from the old system that
needs to spend another 10 bucks. I'm perfectly happy with my setup, and
I certainly spent more than 10 bucks on it.
I am the OP and the reason for cheap speakers is that the user is not on
the computer that much. Computer itself is a Compaq which we got for
$300 at Staples.
 
C

choro

Well-tempered tuning came in around the 18th century to cope with the
fact that keyboard instruments were acquiring more and more keys and
composers were writing in unusual keys and modulating more and more.
Keyboards grew from a mere 4 octaves in range to the present 7+ octaves
which exacerbates the problem. This led to keyboard instruments tuned
the conventional way sounding more and more out of tune as more distant
keys were being played or modulated to. In fact in was to prove the
effectiveness of temperamental tuning that Bach, the dad, wrote his 48
Preludes and Fugues for the Keyboard.

In fact pianos today are deliberately mis-tuned as the bass notes and
the topmost notes would be out of kilter otherwise. Pythagorean Comma,
if you want to look it up. I wrote about this at length long years ago
on another NG when I still didn't know the amount of information that is
readily available on the Internet. Not very easy to explain to the
layman but it's got to do with tuning 5ths slightly out so that the
octaves can be true octaves. This very fact of mis-tuning 5ths sounds
not quite right to a string player with a good ear who tunes his
instrument in true perfect 5ths the aim being to eliminate "Beats". The
fact is that to tune a piano perfectly you have to mistune it, believe
it or not!

In short temperamental tuning is of importance where music is harmonic
rather than melodic. I therefore doubt that the Egyptian or rather the
Middle Eastern Kanun would be tuned in this manner as Egyptian music is
more about melody and rhythms than harmony. The microtones of course are
very important and they vary according to the Maqam* the music is being
played in -- * the key/style of the music being played.

Incidentally I just had a look at Wikipedia and they seem to have a very
nice short article on about the Kanun which to be honest I didn't read,
but it did strike me as quite a well written and short but informative.
See...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanun_(instrument)

For better or for worse, in Western music the old modal music has more
or less disappeared and we are left with just the Major and Minor scales.

String players AND singers for that matter as well as other melodic
instruments do make instinctive adjustments to the actual pitches of the
notes being played depending on the tonality of the piece. But the
difference could hardly be noticed by those uninitiated in this field of
extremely minute microtonal differences.

All melodic instruments and singers differentiate say between A# and Bb
(B flat) which is exactly the same note on the piano and played with the
same black key.

Piano tuning is an art and a science in itself and top tuners are prized
by famous international pianists.
 
C

choro

in message
Hey jim, there really is no need to go into all this bother IF you set
it up right in the first place and have nothing crappy along the line,
that is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Choro, I posted what I did because it wasn't set up correctly. It is a
store bought HP computer, set up in the factory. The environment and
mixer controls were both switched off at set up. I did say "If your
version of Windows 7 was set up like mine was", which should have made
it perfectly clear it wasn't set up by me. I suggest you read the posts
you reply to properly before you start making idiotic comments like that.

jim
My Windows 7 was set up by me! ;-)

It hadn't been set up when I bought it. I set it up.

In fact I built it myself! But that's a different story.

I think I know my English after having written (and typed away) the
equivalent of a paperback book a month for nearly 8 years in my younger
days!
 
P

Paul

LouB said:
I am the OP and the reason for cheap speakers is that the user is not on
the computer that much. Computer itself is a Compaq which we got for
$300 at Staples.
If the sound chip was RealTek (HDAudio chip), then you may have
a control panel that looks like this.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/2728/ddlive0fw.jpg

Try selecting either "Headphones" or "2CH Speaker", while using
the green jack on the back of the computer with those speakers.

The "sound imaging" can be screwed up, if you set the control
panel to 5.1, and you don't have 5.1 speakers connected. The
type set in the control panel, should be carefully set to
match the speaker number of channels.

The nice thing about RealTek chips, is you can get drivers
directly from the manufacturer (realtek.com.tw). Some of the
other chip types they might use, such as Sigmatel/IDT, might
require a visit to the HP site (for Compaq).

The OS would likely have had drivers in it already, so
installing yet more drivers, is if you're desperate and
nothing else is working.

Looking in Device Manager (devmgmt.msc in Start : Run box),
may tell you whether a sound chip was detected.

http://windows7driversinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/DeviceManager.jpg

Paul
 
C

choro

No, it's the user that kept the crap speakers from the old system that
needs to spend another 10 bucks. I'm perfectly happy with my setup, and
I certainly spent more than 10 bucks on it.
Some people can be a bit tight fisted, can't they?

Tonight I was listening so some music on the Internet and the quality
was pretty good except in very complex passages where the the different
strands were a bit muddled up due to compression. Bit rates around the
200 mark and above are quite satisfactory though. But you DO need a good
sound system to do justice to the music.

My reason for writing what I did was not directly to take you to task
but to point out the importance of the sound system on a computer
particularly these days when computers are becoming more and more home
entertainment centers.
 
C

choro

I am the OP and the reason for cheap speakers is that the user is not on
the computer that much. Computer itself is a Compaq which we got for
$300 at Staples.
If the computer is not used so much, my advice would be to get a pair of
ear phones or better still headphones with a microphone built in which
can also be used for talking on Skype etc. Sound quality is pretty good
especially considering the layout!
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Incidentally I just had a look at Wikipedia and they seem to have a very
nice short article on about the Kanun which to be honest I didn't read,
but it did strike me as quite a well written and short but informative.
See...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanun_(instrument)
I'll look at that.

But you missed my pun about frets...

But that got suppressed from this reply anyway, since you quoted my post
under your sig delimiter.

Here's the remark:
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

My Windows 7 was set up by me! ;-)

It hadn't been set up when I bought it. I set it up.

In fact I built it myself! But that's a different story.

I think I know my English after having written (and typed away) the
equivalent of a paperback book a month for nearly 8 years in my younger
days!
I agree with you (I think) - I certainly think that "If your version of
Windows 7 was set up like mine was" says nothing about who set it up or
where they set it up...An unsurprising consequence of the use of the
passive voice.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I'll look at that.
That was interesting, but as you said, short.

The Turks' division of the octave into 72 equal-temperament intervals,
or a halftone into 6, was a total surprise to me. But at least we should
get a quarter tone from three of those microtones...

I had no idea they divided it so finely.

Unfortunately, the pictures were not clear to me about how the mandals
work, and I don't remember from the kanun I saw maybe two decades ago.
I'm sure I'll survive, though :)
 
C

choro

I'll look at that.

But you missed my pun about frets...

But that got suppressed from this reply anyway, since you quoted my post
under your sig delimiter.

Here's the remark:
Sorry, I am not with you.

What pun about the frets are you on about?

By string players I take it you mean bowed string instruments which
actually have NOT got any frets. You make up the note by landing your
finger on the EXACT position on the string within less than a fraction
of a millimeter particularly in the higher positions. But string players
are very agile creatures and if they land a fraction out (usually a very
small fraction of a quarter tone) they adjust for the wrong pitch by
making their fingers relative to the strings more perpendicular which
compensates for the slightly off pitch. And they do this at lightning
speed so hardly can anyone notice the "glide" to the correct pitch
except may be other experienced string players.

This of course does NOT apply to guitar and mandolin players whose
instruments are fretted. But guitar players in particular can "bend" the
notes by pushing the string sideways thus raising the string tension and
therefore the pitch.

Also some violinists play at a very slightly higher pitch than the
orchestra just to make the violin part stand out. But the danger here is
that if the music contains a "flagiolet" for which the instrumentalists
just touches the string instead of pressing it down and thus producing a
high pitched "harmonic" it can sound very flat indeed and there is
nothing they can do about it. He can't possibly change the nodal point
of the string. I have heard this sort of flat flagiolets in concerts
even by famous violinists and quite frankly I don't see how they can
live with it. I guess they figure out that only one person in a thousand
in the audience will or can hear the difference.

And yes, the beauty of string ensembles is that they don't have to play
in the well-tempered scales. And therefore the harmonies are purer.
String instruments are NOT tuned "imperfectly" like pianos etc. You tune
your violin etc in absolutely perfect 5ths so that you can't hear the
"beats" which in the middle register can be heard beating around 3 to 4
times per second as you would hear on the piano playing C and G or D and
A together in the middle register. If you listen very carefully you will
hear the wow, wow, wow around 3 times I believe. That would be
unacceptable on the violin and other stringed instruments. You tune the
violin to eliminate those beats in perfect "perfect 5ths"!

Well tempered tuning is a necessary evil on such instruments like pianos
as otherwise the octaves between the lower and top registers would be
thrown out of kilter. Again see Pythagoras' Comma! It is actually easily
worked out on a simple calculator IF you know and understand what you
are doing.[/QUOTE]
 
A

Allen

On 1/5/2011 9:38 PM, choro wrote:
Choro, thanks for your post re music. I assume that your nym is related
to your interest in music.
Allen
 
C

choro

On 1/5/2011 9:38 PM, choro wrote:

Choro, thanks for your post re music. I assume that your nym is related
to your interest in music.

Could be. But on the other hand it could just be a coincidence.

This shall remain a mystery!
 
K

Ken Blake

By string players I take it you mean bowed string instruments which
actually have NOT got any frets.

True of (most?) modern bowed string instruments, but not true of all
bowed string instruments. The viola da gamba, for example, /does/ have
frets.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Sorry, I am not with you.

What pun about the frets are you on about?
Players of string instruments with frets can't make the slight
adjustments between true temperament and equal temperament that can be
made on unfretted instruments by slight finger position adjustments.

Maybe they can do something with finger pressure, but I ignored that in
order to make my pun. I am now calling that kind of thing punetic
license, or punetic licence if you're British. Still, I don't think
using finger pressure on fretted instruments would really do the trick.

The word "fret", fifth from the end in my quote above, was the nucleus
of the pun.

Other than the pun, the comment about adjusting temperament was serious;
and probably, the most experienced players do it without even thinking
about it.
 
C

choro

Players of string instruments with frets can't make the slight
adjustments between true temperament and equal temperament that can be
made on unfretted instruments by slight finger position adjustments.

Maybe they can do something with finger pressure, but I ignored that in
order to make my pun. I am now calling that kind of thing punetic
license, or punetic licence if you're British. Still, I don't think
using finger pressure on fretted instruments would really do the trick.

The word "fret", fifth from the end in my quote above, was the nucleus
of the pun.

Other than the pun, the comment about adjusting temperament was serious;
and probably, the most experienced players do it without even thinking
about it.
You are right about doing it without thinking. It is just instinctive.
Isn't the link between the human brain and the body's physical reaction
just amazingly incredible where a player can move his hand and one of
his fingers to land quite a few inches higher or lower as the case may
be, and certainly much larger distances in the case of cellos and double
basses to the exact location on the fingerboard within a fraction of a
millimeter. Basically the player hears the sound in their head and the
hand and fingers move by themselves to the exact location.

Nothing strange about this of course. Read Zen in the Art of Archery.
The Zen master shows the German tutor who keeps thinking that one has
got to take aim to shoot the arrow while the Zen master tries to instill
in him the idea that he has got first to be relaxed and then to "let the
arrow go". He also proves to him that aiming is completely unnecessary
by shooting at a target in a completely dark hall with only the target
lit. He can't even see the arrow let alone the tip of the arrow! He just
looks at the target and "lets his arrow go" and has a bull hit. He then
"lets another arrow go" with the second arrow splitting the first arrow
on the target!

But we DO have the equivalent of this in the West. What is "shooting
from the hip" if not exactly the same thing?!

Incidentally did you know that with fretted instruments each higher fret
is spaced 1/17th* less than the distance between the lower two frets?

*Don't take this ratio as the gospel truth but this is what I have
retained in my memory which I can't for certain say is foolproof!

Therefore it stands to reason that the pitch adjusters on instruments
like the harp and the kanun are not all of the same size but get smaller
and smaller for strings with higher and higher pitches. It is all a
question of ratios.

While I am at it I might just as well mention something else. In my very
young days I managed to lay my hands on a viola which as you well know
is a larger instrument and tuned a 5th lower than the violin.
Consequently the strings are longer and the distances for fingering the
notes are greater than on the violin. Of course, to the uninitiated this
would look like a great obstacle for a violinist to get used to playing
the viola. But in fact after less than half an hour I had instinctively
adjusted my hand and finger movements and could play the viola with no
problems even managing quite large jumps to land a finger right on the
dot quite high up on the fingerboard. The only problem the violinist has
in playing the viola is in fact learning how to read the C clef fast
enough, violin music being written in the G clef.

Of course this doesn't make sense to the uninitiated but what if I
mention to you that a good touch typist can type equally fast on their
regular full sized keyboard and transfer at a moment's notice to the
much smaller keyboards on laptops or notebooks?! The same principle as
with violins versus violas.

Now, cellos are a different kettle of fish as the hand position for
playing cellos is quite different to holding a violin or a viola. In
fact the left hand assumes the same shape on the cello as it does on the
classical guitar. This is necessitated by the instrument being much
larger and therefore the distances between the notes much greater.
Cellists even hold the bow differently!

And last but not least don't get me wrong about "fingering it" -- pun
intended or not! ;-)
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

And last but not least don't get me wrong about "fingering it" -- pun
intended or not! ;-)
It's OK, I'll never tell.

BTW, the spacing of the frets or of the kanun levers depends on the
length of the string only. That's why, for instance, guitar frets are
perpendicular to the neck.

Frequency is proportional to tension and inversely proportional to
length and to linear mass density. hence, for a given density and
tension, the length determines the frequency of vibration.

The spacing of guitar frets needs to reflect the frequency ratio of a
half-tone. The ratio of the distances from the bridge to two adjacent
frets is constant, for the famous "ideal" string (i.e., a physicist's
abstraction).
 
C

choro

It's OK, I'll never tell.

BTW, the spacing of the frets or of the kanun levers depends on the
length of the string only. That's why, for instance, guitar frets are
perpendicular to the neck.

Frequency is proportional to tension and inversely proportional to
length and to linear mass density. hence, for a given density and
tension, the length determines the frequency of vibration.
"We, we!!!" But of course!
The spacing of guitar frets needs to reflect the frequency ratio of a
half-tone. The ratio of the distances from the bridge to two adjacent
frets is constant, for the famous "ideal" string (i.e., a physicist's
abstraction).
You've lost me there but you are expressing it in more scientific terms
than I. Yes, the thicker the string the higher the tension must be
for any given frequency on a given length of string. And the shorter
the length of string of any given thickness and tension the higher the
pitch.

When a string is stopped half way up its length you get the octave
above. Hence the octave fret on a guitar lies exactly 1/2 way along the
string's length from the nut to the bridge. (See the excellent Wiki page
mentioned below and particularly the Construction and Components section
3) A true 5th, or the perfect dominant in musical terms, lies 1/3rds up
the length of the string which is where you stop say a D (Re) string to
get an A (La) or where the fret lies or should lie on a fretted
instrument. However, I believe some allowance is made for temperamental
tuning on such harmonic instruments as guitars where the octave is
divided into 12 equally spaced semitones. The 12th fret which sounds the
octave above the open strings is always exactly half way up the string's
length.

But for those who are more interested in this subject, have a look at...
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/guitar
or the excellent Wiki page on guitars...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar

Incidentally, Wikipedia as asking for donations and I think we owe it to
ourselves to give small donations to such an excellent non-profit making
foundation unless we want it ending up full of intrusive ads. I have
made my small contribution and think they fully deserve it.
 

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