KB976902 update disappears into Black Hole

[SC Tom]

Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just top-posting
without the sig.

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under it,
that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I bottom-post, but
I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the test post I made still
has the complete post.

 

[relic]

Just a test to see if my MS newsreader is still working correctly.

no

 

[relic]

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under
it, that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I
bottom-post, but I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the
test post I made still has the complete post.

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?

 

[SC Tom]

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?

Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post. In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

 

[Char Jackson]

Just a test to see if my MS newsreader is still working correctly.

Nope, not working correctly at all. Your contribution above was
followed by a properly formatted sig delimiter, and then the rest of
the post followed that. That's completely broken behavior. Your sig
delimiter belongs at the bottom of the post, (regardless of where you
choose to add your text), not near the top or somewhere in the middle.

 

[Char Jackson]

Yep, test worked fine.

Actually, it didn't work at all. It only verified the issues we've
been discussing.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under it,
that to me is not working correctly.

You're confused. The entire purpose of the sig delimiter
(dash-dash-space) is to tell the newsreader of the person attempting
to follow up where the message ends and the signature block begins. By
putting the sig delimiter in random places in the post, you completely
break all of the standards-compliant newsreaders out there.

Mind you, by habit, I bottom-post, but
I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the test post I made still
has the complete post.

I don't think it's valid to use a known broken newsreader to declare
any kind of successful testing, do you?

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post. In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

 

[Char Jackson]

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

Thank you for your additional voice of reason.

 

[SC Tom]

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

Oh, OK, I get that part now. But isn't bottom-posting also following (most)
Usenet standards? (I know there are many, many trains of thought on that
question- it's more rhetorical than anything else ) But then the
argument becomes, is it really broken just because it DOESN'T delete
everything below the sig? I've used many newsreaders, mail clients, and
combo products such as OE, WLM, and Thunderbird, over the years. If one
doesn't behave the same as another, does that mean the other is broke? Just
because I don't like the way Thunderbird behaves doesn't mean that it's
broken; it just means I don't like it.

 

[Char Jackson]

Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post.

Your test is flawed. The test isn't to see what shows up in YOUR post.
The test is to see what shows up in REPLIES to your post. When you put
your sig delimiter near the top or middle of your post, anyone using a
proper newsreader trying to follow up to that post will find
themselves with no history except your most recent text.

That's because a standards-compliant newsreader looks for and
recognizes your sig delimiter and properly truncates the post at that
point. Everything below the sig delimiter is part of the sig, by
definition. The problem is that your broken or misconfigured
newsreader is failing to place the sig delimiter in the proper
location.

In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

You're missing something.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Oh, OK, I get that part now. But isn't bottom-posting also following (most)
Usenet standards? (I know there are many, many trains of thought on that
question- it's more rhetorical than anything else ) But then the
argument becomes, is it really broken just because it DOESN'T delete
everything below the sig? I've used many newsreaders, mail clients, and
combo products such as OE, WLM, and Thunderbird, over the years. If one
doesn't behave the same as another, does that mean the other is broke? Just
because I don't like the way Thunderbird behaves doesn't mean that it's
broken; it just means I don't like it.

Bottom posts should precede the sig. Top posts and replies should
precede the sig. The sig should be the last thing in any post.

Anything after the sig delimiter is by definition part of the sig. Many
newsreaders put the sig in the original post in a different font
(italic, greyed out, whatever, to indicate that it's not truly part of
the post) and all newsreaders *should* suppress the sig in a reply.

As for whether to top post or bottom post, for many people it seems to
be a religious issue

In practice, I am agnostic on that one. I reply the same way the last
poster did, if I am not the first to reply. Usually, I bottom post if I
am the first replier, unless it's a newsgroup that likes top posting
(yes, there are a few).

My own preference, which I don't usually get to follow, is top posting,
so I don't have to scroll through 12,671 replies to get to the most
recent reply. This is especially irksome if I'm reading a whole long
thread at once, since in that situation the earlier replies are fresh in
my memory.

It's also good form to snip irrelevant quoted material, and it's also
good form to interleave reply text in the quoted material to put it near
what it is replying to.

 

[Peter Foldes]

Nope, not working correctly at all. Your contribution above was
followed by a properly formatted sig delimiter, and then the rest of
the post followed that. That's completely broken behavior. Your sig
delimiter belongs at the bottom of the post, (regardless of where you
choose to add your text), not near the top or somewhere in the middle.

Huh???

--
Peter
Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others
Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
http://www.microsoft.com/protect

 

[relic]

Huh???

What she said.

 

[relic]

Bottom posts should precede the sig. Top posts and replies should
precede the sig. The sig should be the last thing in any post.

Anything after the sig delimiter is by definition part of the sig. Many
newsreaders put the sig in the original post in a different font
(italic, greyed out, whatever, to indicate that it's not truly part of
the post) and all newsreaders *should* suppress the sig in a reply.

As for whether to top post or bottom post, for many people it seems to
be a religious issue

In practice, I am agnostic on that one. I reply the same way the last
poster did, if I am not the first to reply. Usually, I bottom post if I
am the first replier, unless it's a newsgroup that likes top posting
(yes, there are a few).

My own preference, which I don't usually get to follow, is top posting,
so I don't have to scroll through 12,671 replies to get to the most
recent reply. This is especially irksome if I'm reading a whole long
thread at once, since in that situation the earlier replies are fresh in
my memory.

It's also good form to snip irrelevant quoted material, and it's also
good form to interleave reply text in the quoted material to put it near
what it is replying to.

His confusion is probably because he's never used any newsreader except one
produced by Microsoft, so he's never seen one snip everything below the sig
delimiter.

Top posting is annoying because most non-Microsoft news readers
automatically position your reply at the bottom... the top-post breaks up
the conversation flow.

 

[relic]

I don't think it's valid to use a known broken newsreader to declare
any kind of successful testing, do you?

Bravo!! That's well said.

 

[SC Tom]

Bravo!! That's well said.

As stated in my previous post on that matter, just because someone doesn't
like a program's behavior doesn't mean it's broken.

And yes, I have used other newsreaders beside MS ones, although it has been
a while. I didn't consider them broken just because I left them for
something else.

 

[Roy Smith]

R.C.

Same here. Many are on my neck for the Sig Delimiter in my post. Never
but never did anyone or anybody complain about it except on this server.
Been using this sig of mine since 94 . I just tend to ignore them. As
far as I am concerned it is their newsreader that cannot handle the
delimiter

The problem with your sig delimiter is that it's in the wrong place.
Instead of being after the text you've written, it should be at the
bottom of your post. The reason being that a newsreader that properly
handles a sig delimiter will remove all of the text after it when
replying to another message. So in effect any other text that has been
quoted from other messages is also removed if it's below your sig delimiter.

As you can see from this reply, all of the previously quoted material
from your message is gone and all that remains is what was above your
sig delimiter. Now if your sig delimiter was at the bottom, then the
previously quoted material would still be there. I know that in WLM
options there is a setting where you can make your signatures appear at
the bottom and still top post.


--

Roy Smith
Windows 7 Professional
Thunderbird 3.1.6
Friday, October 29, 2010 6:21:04 PM

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

His confusion is probably because he's never used any newsreader except one
produced by Microsoft, so he's never seen one snip everything below the sig
delimiter.

I was beginning to wonder that too.

Top posting is annoying because most non-Microsoft news readers
automatically position your reply at the bottom... the top-post breaks up
the conversation flow.

That's why I don't always accept what the newsreader hands me

For one thing, if an entire post has only top replies, then accepting
the newsreader's choice is what breaks it up.

As I said, I prefer to stick to what's happening in a particular post
with its existing replies. But what do I do when a post has a mixture of
bottom and top replies? Punt?

IOW, I usually just follow the example set by the last reply. Or else I
don't reply. I guess I could instead just stick my reply in some totally
irrelevant place in-line

Or I could put all the odd-numbered sentences on the top and all the
even ones on the bottom. I like that idea. Wait for it...

 

[relic]

I was beginning to wonder that too.


That's why I don't always accept what the newsreader hands me

For one thing, if an entire post has only top replies, then accepting
the newsreader's choice is what breaks it up.

As I said, I prefer to stick to what's happening in a particular post
with its existing replies. But what do I do when a post has a mixture of
bottom and top replies? Punt?

IOW, I usually just follow the example set by the last reply. Or else I
don't reply. I guess I could instead just stick my reply in some totally
irrelevant place in-line

That one ^^. It gets my vote!

 

[relic]

Okay,

As stated in my previous post on that matter, just because someone doesn't
like a program's behavior doesn't mean it's broken.

And yes, I have used other newsreaders beside MS ones, although it has
been works
a while. I didn't consider them broken just because I left them for for
something else.