Is this hypocritical?

[shantelleno1]

On this site,

Username: captainpirate started a thread titled "Remove Windows 7 Genuine". It reads,

I have a problem that i cannot remove windows 7 genuine.
It appears in bottom of desktop as:

Windows 7
Build 7600
This copy of Windows is not genuine.

I try this method but cannot remove:
First i deleted wtatray and wgalogon from Localdisk/windows/system32

And then i go to regedit
and deleted notify folder from HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\WindowsNT\Current Version\winlogon
Then i reboot my pc.
But cannot remove it.
Please provide me best solution.
I think this is in right place.

A few posts later captainpirate posts,

I have not original copy.
I want to just remove its genuine.

On page 2 of the topic TrainableMan posted,

We can not encourage or assist in illegal software for any reason.

Yet in the topic titled "Is there a way to copy DVD's I purchased onto my hard drive ?" TrainableMan provides a link to a topic titled "Free Multimedia Software!" which has a list of DVD Rippers including DVDShrink. The sites description reads as follows,

The first preventative measure is encryption. Commercial DVD titles are often encrypted, which prevents you from either copying them to your hard drive, or if you manage to do so, being able to play the resulting files. DVDShrink overcomes this problem with built-in decryption algorithms.

On every studio produced DVD I have watched, It clearly states that the copy protection my not be bypassed without written consent from the copyright owner. Therefore "DVDRippers" for the most part are (in TrainableMan's words) illegal software. Every member who promotes the use of DVD Rippers is promoting illegal software.

Fire cat's post "One of the best is AnyDVD by Slysoft. Really nice tool" is promoting illegal software.
Nibiru2012's post "Using Slysoft's AnyDVD along with ImgBurn does a good job. Also Clone DVD along with AnyDVD works very well too.
DVDFab Platinum has lot of features and configurations. I use it when I want just the movie, not the Director comments,
other languages, sub-titles, etc promotes illegal software.

If you are going to take the moral high ground and state "We can not encourage or assist in illegal software for any reason" then take the stand
against ALL illegal software. Just because you payed for the DVD doesn't mean you have the right to break the copy protection & the law.

Shantelle.

 

[TrainableMan]

If you read my post I specifically state that there are legitimate reasons a person can have DVDs to copy. I never encourage the user to pirate movies. We do not encourage and can not be responsible if users use software to participate in illegal activities.

Also, to my knowledge DVD Shrink does not include the decryption program, that is a separate program.

 

[clifford_cooley]

Yes you can, there's several different ways to do it.
DVD movie discs have copyright protection features.
As a Moderator, ethically I can't give you program names.
Just Google "copy DVD movies", believe me you'll find the answer you're looking for on the first page shown. You can also Google "DVD backup software".

I believe that making one copy of purchased software is legally acceptable. The problem is:
Using software to remove encryption is illegal.
Sort of a “Catch 22”.

This is my stand point.

You have a very valid argument that probably needs to be discussed among admin and mods, for the very reason that you seem to be confused about.

 

[Nibiru2012]

Sir, I believe you're taking things out of context here.

However, in a sense you're correct. I must remind you that the programs we were discussing for DVDs IS LEGAL in the countries where it is sold from! So therefore the software is NOT ILLEGAL.

Also those countries where this software is sold from DO NOT HAVE LAWS against copying DVDs!

Now if the individual purchasing the software resides in a country where it is illegal to copy DVDs that is their decision and they take the risks associated with it.

Also the software we were discussing are legitimate products, not hacks, cracks, keygens, patches, etc., products that can be legitimately purchased no matter where one resides.

How one uses that software is their own discretion, not ours. We were just giving opinions and comments on the various types of DVD copy software that's available.

ANYBODY can Google it or use any other search engine and find the programs we discussed in less than 30 seconds of searching.

captainpirate's problem was that he stated he was using an "illegal" copy of Windows 7 and wanted to know how to remove the watermark on the desktop stating: This copy of Windows is not Genuine.

We cannot and will not tell someone how to do that because there are rules regarding that subject. He told us it was a pirated copy... he was in the wrong regarding that, not us.

If he had a Bushmaster AR-15 Semi-Auto rifle and wanted to convert it to full automatic it would be the same thing. He can inquire about an illegal thing to do but he won't get the answer.

Inquiring about a drug that is available over the counter in Mexico, but is prescription in the USA, is not illegal but seeking information.

Addendum:
I also can find and purchase alcohol stills made in the USA, download the recipes and instructions on how to make "corn liquor". Selling the copper alcohol stills is not illegal, buying a book or download recipes is not illegal, but making myself a batch of homemade whiskey is illegal according to the US Federal law unless I pay special "taxes".

So who is breaking the law? The seller of the still? The seller of the book of instructions and recipes? The owner of the website where you can download instructions and recipes? The end user who makes the end product?

This is one of those areas where there is a HUGE GRAY area! Back in the '60s, '70s and '80s it was very common and accepted practice to copy vinyl records to either reel-to-reel, 8-Track or cassette tapes for use in the car or for parties (so some idiot drunk wouldn't ruin a prized album collection.) I never once heard anyone complain about that?

If it's for personal use and not being sold or given away, I do not see that there is an issue here. It is up to each individual and their personal mores and values.

What about the person who uses a DVR to record a favorite program, movie or sporting event for later viewing? You are aware that according to the "letter of the law" that recording Monday Night Football on a DVR and watching two days later with a bunch of friends violates ESPN's copyright and trademark? It's even stated verbally at the beginning of, or end of, each broadcast!

 

[draceena]

I know not everyone agrees with Wikipedia, but glancing through the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping

And the following stood out to me:

In the case where media contents are protected using some effective copy protection scheme, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes it illegal to manufacture or distribute circumvention tools and use those tools for non-fair use purposes. In the case RealNetworks v. DVD CCA,[2] the final injunction reads, "while it may well be fair use for an individual consumer to store a backup copy of a personally owned DVD on that individual's computer, a federal law has nonetheless made it illegal to manufacture or traffic in a device or tool that permits a consumer to make such copies."[3] This case made clear that manufacturing and distribution of circumvention tools was illegal, but fair use of those tools was not.

So in the end, it's a very grey area and the litigation will no doubt continue as newer forms of data distribution are created.

However, the laws for circumnavigating the need for a valid key for Windows is very cut and dry.

 

[TrainableMan]

BTW that was a very old post about someone trying to use pirated software. Someone dug it up to instigate an argument for reasons that it is OK. We simply can't encourage that; it doesn't mean we are blind that it goes on, any more than Microsoft is. So I stated the forum policy and I closed the thread to any more discussion.

Telling a person about software that is perfectly legal to have is NOT a crime and as I explained there can be perfectly legitimate reasons to use it. I'm guessing you have never used DVD Shrink, as it can be used to convert home movies to a DVD in just the right size to fit on a single or double layer DVD. DVD shrink was specifically written to exclude the decryption software to avoid the situation Draceena mentions.

 

[TrainableMan]

Our policy for the site must be and is to encourage people to follow the laws in their area.

We are human ... I am human, and therefore imperfect but, in my answers I try my best to help the poster and still protect the site and follow its' rules. I did not suggest they do anything illegal and I do not feel I was being hypocritical at all.

Hopefully I answered your concern; if so please mark the thread solved.

If you have more questions please feel free to post back here or message me.

 

[Nibiru2012]

Well stated TM! I don't believe anyone stated the OP do anything illegal either.

Besides as I stated above and as you stated, it all really depends on where the end-user resides.

 

[Digerati]

Also those countries where this software is sold from DO NOT HAVE LAWS against copying DVDs!

Besides as I stated above and as you stated, it all really depends on where the end-user resides.

The former is not true, the latter true. The protection of "intellectual property" is governed by the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), of which the United Nations is a member. With few exceptions, that means if your country is a member state of the United Nations, your country has agreed to protect owner rights of "intangible assets" as intellectual property which includes music, literature, art, discoveries and inventions, copyrights, trademarks, patents, etc.

So, to the second statement, if the end-user's country is a member of the UN, and the DVD is copyrighted, copying without the proper restitution or "royalty" is illegal - regardless if they have their own laws or not.

It is important to note you don't own song, program, or movie, you own the license and by using the song, program, or movie, you agree to the terms of the license. Just as you agreed to the Rules of this board, which state,

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

Is this hypocritical?

No.

 

[Fire cat]

Ok; here's how conceive this:

As long as I don't start distributing the DVD, for free or not, and as long as it stays for personnal use, it's legal.

What would be illegal, would be redistribute the DVD - and even more illegal - without the copyright notice.

I mean, I take one of the DVDs BOUGHT, rip it, and then convert it to be able to view it on my iPod - without giving it out to friends or posting on some lousy site. Seriously, THAT'S illegal?

 

[draceena]

As far as the courts are concerned, at this perticular moment in time, using software to do the ripping is illegal but having the ripped copy for your own personal use is not. *boggle*

 

[davehc]

The former is not true, the latter true. The protection of "intellectual property" is governed by the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), of which the United Nations is a member. With few exceptions, that means if your country is a member state of the United Nations, your country has agreed to protect owner rights of "intangible assets" as intellectual property which includes music, literature, art, discoveries and inventions, copyrights, trademarks, patents, etc.

In defence of Niburu's post. I did once reside in a country, an acknowledged member of the UN, where one could buy pirated software openly in retail shops. In fact, it was difficult to purchase original material. In the dos days of personal computers, I set up computers for my organisation, entirely with pirated material. Management and local government were totally aware of this.
Admittedly, this was some years ago, and possibly things have improved there now.

Draceena. I am interested in your last post. Do you have a reference to such a case

 

[Digerati]

As long as I don't start distributing the DVD, for free or not, and as long as it stays for personnal use, it's legal.

Maybe, maybe not.

If you are talking about a music or movie DVD, then you can make a copy for your own personal use as long as you keep the original and all copies. If you give away or sell the original, you must destroy all the copies.

But if talking about software that comes on a DVD, in this case, a "genuine" Windows installation disk, you are only allowed to make a copy for backup purposes only - for in the event the original disk is damaged. You CANNOT make a copy to install Windows onto another machine. It is important to note the distinction. With software, you don't own the program, you own a license to use it. The disk is simply the distribution media. And by using the software, you agree to use it in accordance with the terms of the license agreement.

 

[TrainableMan]

See, we aren't hypocrites, we're just confused as all get out! :lol:

As always, please follow the laws in your area
... if anybody knows them and can figure them out!

Ignorance of the law is no excuse but lawmakers being ignorant often is!

 

[Digerati]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse but lawmakers being ignorant often is!

lol All the more reason to exercise your Right, your "duty" to vote!

 

[shantelleno1]

See, we aren't hypocrites, we're just confused as all get out! :lol:

As always, please follow the laws in your area
... if anybody knows them and can figure them out!

Damn, I had 2-3 pages of responses to validate my point and you went and got all moral on me

One thing that I would like cleared up:

clifford cooley quoting Nibiru2010:

Originally Posted by Nibiru2012
Yes you can, there's several different ways to do it.
DVD movie discs have copyright protection features.
As a Moderator, ethically I can't give you program names.
Just Google "copy DVD movies", believe me you'll find the answer you're looking for on the first page shown. You can also Google "DVD backup software".

If the consensus is that making backups of DVD's is not illegal, why is it ethically wrong to provide program names?

By the way...thanks for all the responses.

Shantelle.

 

[TrainableMan]

Nibs did not want to assist in any illegal activity and he made it clear that copying protected movies was illegal, at least where he lives, and to follow site rules he was careful. It's as simple as that. As is fairly clear from this thread, the fine points of law are not our forte and it is better to err on the side of caution until our lawyer, Digerati, can weigh in.

l did not want to assist in illegal activity either and merely offered a link to another posters list of legally obtainable software that can be used for perfectly legitimate reasons.

BTW, it doesn't matter what the consensus believes, what matters is the actual laws on the books, at least until the masses go out and get the laws changed.

 

[draceena]

Davehc, from this quote supplied from Wikipedia, they mention it is illegal to manufacture or distribute circumnavigation tools....fair use of the tools is not illegal...to wit, if I buy the DVD ripper that is wrong, but using the ripper which would result in a copy is ok, so was was misquoting somewhat there, my bad.

In the case where media contents are protected using some effective copy protection scheme, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes it illegal to manufacture or distribute circumvention tools and use those tools for non-fair use purposes. In the case RealNetworks v. DVD CCA,[2] the final injunction reads, "while it may well be fair use for an individual consumer to store a backup copy of a personally owned DVD on that individual's computer, a federal law has nonetheless made it illegal to manufacture or traffic in a device or tool that permits a consumer to make such copies."[3] This case made clear that manufacturing and distribution of circumvention tools was illegal, but fair use of those tools was not.

 

[davehc]

Thanks, draceena. That makes it as clear as mud, unfortunately. I ponder on how one would obtain such "tools", legally, if it is illegal to make them.
But, this article is dealing with the actual hacking process. I believe the issue has to be the legality, from the original producers point of view, of actually using the hacked software. Your post "but having the ripped copy for your own personal use is not"

 

[Digerati]

it is better to err on the side of caution until our lawyer, Digerati, can weigh in.

Well, I am not a lawyer. I did, however, take several business law courses as part of my degree program. And I did work HW support in a major software company for many years, and have been an IT consultant even longer. So I have encountered these questions often and have done a lot of research, to including speaking with legal departments and it is clear that copyright infringement laws are clear and pretty much universal - at least among UN member states.

The problem is corrupt and/or poor and/or devious governments or government officials who either turn a blind eye to software piracy (which includes song and movie files), or they condone and support it openly. In some countries, officials are taking a cut of the profits via bribes and coercion. In other countries, they just don't have the resources to stop piracy. And in other countries their leaders [allegedly] have an active role in piracy, counterfeiting, and other means designed to damage the "Free World's" economy. In other words, they promote piracy as a weapon against democracy, capitalism, or even non-Islamic peoples.

But, this article is dealing with the actual hacking process

Right! This thread was about hiding the fact the OP was [allegedly] using an illegal copy of "Windows". And that is an important distinction from copying movie DVDs or music CDs. You are allowed to make a copy of your music or movies for personal use because it is assumed you are not listening to your CD in your car and in your home at the exact same time. But you can run a program, in this case Windows, on multiple computers at once and for that reason, you are NOT allowed to make copies, except for backup purposes, and you are not allowed to run that software on multiple machines unless the EULA (end user license agreement) specifically says you can install it on X-number of computers.