IE9 Beta 64 bit or Can't M$ get anything right?

K

Ken Blake

Just updated to IE9 64 bit Beta. Tried to access CBC Classical. No
sound. Yet I have been getting it no problem on Google Chrome! I was
hoping that IE9 would live up to the hype! But hell, NO!!!


All that exists of IE9 is a beta test version of it. The reason it's a
beta test version instead of a released version is that it still has
bugs in it, and Microsoft is looking for beta test users to inform
them of other bugs as they are found.

In my view, unless you have a spare computer to install it on, and
enjoy doing beta testing of software and reporting of bugs to
Microsoft, installing such beta software is just looking for trouble.

Yes, you can install the beta version, but for almost everyone I
strongly advise *against* doing that, and waiting for it to be
released.
 
E

Ed Cryer

Okay, you have my interest now.
I run win 7/64 and am constantly bothered by the many "Documents"
folders that seem to come from nowhere. This is the biggest pain I have
concerning Win 7.

Not only will new Documents folders appear, sometimes they hijack an
existing folder. Example: Suddenly a sub folder of my "real" documents
folder, named "Excel Files" disappears and, in searching, I find it, but
it is renamed "documents". Royal PITA.

I've been blaming the Libraries feature (which is also a pita) for this
confusion but I'm not sure.

If anyone solves this, please post it.

Wilby
Have a look here;
http://tinyurl.com/5vekqt3

It worked for Kristin.

Ed
 
E

Ed Cryer

All that exists of IE9 is a beta test version of it. The reason it's a
beta test version instead of a released version is that it still has
bugs in it, and Microsoft is looking for beta test users to inform
them of other bugs as they are found.

In my view, unless you have a spare computer to install it on, and
enjoy doing beta testing of software and reporting of bugs to
Microsoft, installing such beta software is just looking for trouble.

Yes, you can install the beta version, but for almost everyone I
strongly advise *against* doing that, and waiting for it to be
released.
No, it doesn't necessarily have bugs in it. It's beta because it's not
been passed for general release; and it won't go on general release
until it's been fully tested, even to destruction. And the best way to
do that is to let anyone who wants to use it in their environment.

If there weren't good souls prepared to do that, then the standard of
released software would be severely reduced.

Ed
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Used the first link or URL you gave in IE9 and ended up with iTunes
eventually and it was OK. But I'd rather stick with Google Chrome where
I have a shortcut already and all I have to do is to click it to get to
CBC Classical.

Incidentally when I tried the same URL with IE9 it said something like I
need Flash Player 10.1 and when clicked to get there, it merely said
Flash player 10.1 is not yet ready for 64 bit IE9.

So much for M$! It is like going to a restaurant and ordering a Sunday
roast and they serve it to you with a "Sorry, but the roast potatoes are
not yet ready!"
You realize that Flash is *not* a Microsoft product, don't you?
 
S

Stan Brown

All that exists of IE9 is a beta test version of it. The reason it's a
beta test version instead of a released version is that it still has
bugs in it,
I don't like sounding like "alias", but by that criterion we are all
running beta versions of Windows 7. :-(
 
C

Char Jackson

Do a search for folders named Documents and you will soon see them!
Or see the tree of the partition you keep you documents in and you will
soon see...
Drive letter\Users\Your name\My Documents\My Documents\filename.ext

And what need is there to have it also under
Libraries\Documents\My Documents ?
I don't have the issue here on either of my Win 7 systems, but thanks
for the response. It does seem to be a real issue that affects some
people, but I don't know how common it is. Check out the link someone
else provided for some possible fixes.
 
K

Ken Blake

No, it doesn't necessarily have bugs in it.

*All* Software (except the simple "Hello World" type of software),
even released software, has bugs in it. Here's an article I wrote on
the subject a few years ago:

Have you ever heard someone say "I won't install that program. It has
bugs in it"? How about "I'll wait until they get all the bugs out"?

If you think people are justified in saying that, I have a
secret to share with you. All software has bugs.
This is worth repeating an extra time, a little louder: All
software has bugs.
Please don't write and send me a counter example snippet of a
few lines of code that does something like displaying a single line on
the screen. Yes, I know it's possible to do that. But the fact
remains, that except for the trivial, there's no such thing as
bug-free software.
For some reason, most people don't understand this. They think
they're entitled to get bug-free software, and they often dismiss a
good product because they, or someone they know, had a problem with
it. In a perfect world, of course, they would be right—bug-free
software should exist, and everyone should expect and demand it.
Why is it that all software has bugs? Why can't we ever have
truly flawless programs?
There are really two answers to those questions. One is the
theoretical one; the other is the mundane, practical one of economic
realities.
The theoretical one is easy to understand: one can prove the
presence of bugs, but never their absence. You find a bug by testing
the software. If it doesn't work the way it's supposed to, you've
found a bug.
But suppose you run a test and everything works correctly.
Does that show there are no bugs? Highly unlikely. It's far more
likely that your test just wasn't thorough enough. Run more and better
test cases, exercise the program more thoroughly, and you can always
find more bugs. Today's programs are far more than sufficiently
complex that more bugs can always be found if you test long enough,
hard enough, and smart enough. Even if a program had no remaining
bugs, one could never prove it; it is always possible that still
another test will find still another bug. And in practice, it always
does, if the testers are clever enough.
What about the practical necessities of how software is
tested? Bear in mind, first of all, that there are three groups of
players in this game: the developers, the quality assurance team (the
testers), and the marketing people.
The developers are usually endowed with supreme confidence.
When they write code, according to them it will work first time out.
It's hardly even necessary to test, and it only should be done just to
give everyone a little extra confidence in the product.
The quality assurance people have been in this business for a
while. QA knows there are bugs in the product, and delights in showing
their superior skill and ever finding more bugs to prove to the
developers that they don't know how to develop software.
And the marketing people. The marketing people are concerned
that the company is losing market share every day that the product
doesn't ship. "Guys, we have to get this product out the door. It
doesn't matter if it's not perfect. Few people will use that buggy
feature anyway."
So we have a triangle—each side with a different point of
view, and a different axe to grind. Who wins out? Well, the strength
of the sides clearly differs from company to company, product to
product, situation to situation, and individual to individual. But in
the long run, it's clear who eventually wins—it's always marketing.
They win because they have to win, because ultimately they're
right—you have to get the product out the door sooner or later, or the
company can't survive. You simply can't wait forever. QA can always
find more bugs, and if you give them their head, they will test
forever and the product will never ship.
So what happens in practice? How are products tested, bugs
found, and bugs fixed? The details of the procedure certainly varies
from company to company, but most companies do something like the
following. The software, once completed, goes through a round of
testing. QA identifies a bunch of bugs, and those bugs are classified
with respect to things like severity, user impact, frequency of
occurrence, and difficulty of correction.
The defect reports (description of the bugs) go back to the
developers for correction. Some (for example, errors in spelling a
message on the screen) are easy to correct, and can quickly be fixed
even if their impact is slight. Others may take longer, some much
longer. In some cases, the correction of an error may be so difficult,
perhaps even requiring a major rewrite of a large portion of the
software, that the developers rebel against fixing it at all. They may
argue that the error occurs only in an exceedingly unlikely and
infrequent situation.
Folks, like it or not, that argument is sometimes accepted.
The exigencies of getting the product out the door sometimes demand
that it be accepted. Nobody is particularly happy with that decision,
but it is seen as the only practical thing to do. Sometimes it's the
right decision; sometimes it's the wrong one.
So some of the errors get fixed, some of the fixes are still
being worked on, and other errors may be accepted as not worth the
effort of fixing. The partially-corrected software now goes back to
QA, and the whole process is repeated once more.
Test, identify bugs, fix some of them, resubmit for testing,
test, identify bugs, fix some of them, resubmit for testing... This
sequence is repeated again and again until management decides that the
product is good enough. It does not wait until there are no more bugs;
it waits until that "good enough" stage has been reached. There is no
alternative—it will never be perfect; QA can always find another bug
if you let them run another test.
So what is "good enough"? How do you know when that stage has
been reached? Different companies, different people will answer that
question differently, and even the same people will answer it
differently at different times, in different situations.
What goes into the determination? Questions like these: How
many bugs still remain? What is their severity?. How frequently do
they occur? What is the rate of finding new bugs—is QA still finding
bugs at the same rate as they started to, or have they slowed down?
Then there are the marketing questions. How late is the product? What
is the competition doing? Is their product out yet? Is the
competition's product stable or buggy?
So sooner or later, rightly or wrongly, the product is
released—and it always still has bugs. Some of those bugs are there
because they haven't been found by the testers, others are known, and
a conscious decision was made to ship the product with them remaining
in it.
What does this all mean? That all software is terrible and
equally bad? Not at all. I began by saying that all software had bugs,
not that all software is equally bad. One product has many
bugs—another may have far fewer. Some programs have severe problems,
perhaps completely crashing whenever an important feature is
used—another may have mostly minor problems. Some software has
problems are hard to recover from—others have simple workarounds.
Differences between software stability certainly exist, and
those differences can often be dramatic. But perfection—the absence of
all bugs—does not exist, can not exist, and will never exist.
OK, once more. All together now, "All software has bugs."
 
K

KCB

?
choro said:
Yes but unfortunately the "Flash Harry" in question can't get an erection
for 64 bit Win7. It must still be waiting for its Viagra or Cialis.

IF and it is a big IF, IE9 is that much better than Google Chrome I'll be
very, very surprised. I use IE for M$ updates and only for M$ updates.

And I have certainly spent a lot of big bucks with them over the years. 7
Win XP's, 1 Vista and now 1 Win7, several Win95's, Win98's, the Millennium
version to say nothing of the earlier OS's plus over the years 4 different
versions of M$ Office. Naturally I get a bit disgruntled when I download
an add-on which I expect to work even if it is still in Beta.
Your problem is not that you were using IE9 beta, but that you were using
the 64-bit version, and not realizing that Flash does not work with it. You
can download a recently released version of Flash that is supposed to work
with 64-bit browsers at www.adobe.com.
 
E

Ed Cryer

*All* Software (except the simple "Hello World" type of software),
even released software, has bugs in it. Here's an article I wrote on
the subject a few years ago:

Have you ever heard someone say "I won't install that program. It has
bugs in it"? How about "I'll wait until they get all the bugs out"?

If you think people are justified in saying that, I have a
secret to share with you. All software has bugs.
This is worth repeating an extra time, a little louder: All
software has bugs.
Please don't write and send me a counter example snippet of a
few lines of code that does something like displaying a single line on
the screen. Yes, I know it's possible to do that. But the fact
remains, that except for the trivial, there's no such thing as
bug-free software.
For some reason, most people don't understand this. They think
they're entitled to get bug-free software, and they often dismiss a
good product because they, or someone they know, had a problem with
it. In a perfect world, of course, they would be right—bug-free
software should exist, and everyone should expect and demand it.
Why is it that all software has bugs? Why can't we ever have
truly flawless programs?
There are really two answers to those questions. One is the
theoretical one; the other is the mundane, practical one of economic
realities.
The theoretical one is easy to understand: one can prove the
presence of bugs, but never their absence. You find a bug by testing
the software. If it doesn't work the way it's supposed to, you've
found a bug.
But suppose you run a test and everything works correctly.
Does that show there are no bugs? Highly unlikely. It's far more
likely that your test just wasn't thorough enough. Run more and better
test cases, exercise the program more thoroughly, and you can always
find more bugs. Today's programs are far more than sufficiently
complex that more bugs can always be found if you test long enough,
hard enough, and smart enough. Even if a program had no remaining
bugs, one could never prove it; it is always possible that still
another test will find still another bug. And in practice, it always
does, if the testers are clever enough.
What about the practical necessities of how software is
tested? Bear in mind, first of all, that there are three groups of
players in this game: the developers, the quality assurance team (the
testers), and the marketing people.
The developers are usually endowed with supreme confidence.
When they write code, according to them it will work first time out.
It's hardly even necessary to test, and it only should be done just to
give everyone a little extra confidence in the product.
The quality assurance people have been in this business for a
while. QA knows there are bugs in the product, and delights in showing
their superior skill and ever finding more bugs to prove to the
developers that they don't know how to develop software.
And the marketing people. The marketing people are concerned
that the company is losing market share every day that the product
doesn't ship. "Guys, we have to get this product out the door. It
doesn't matter if it's not perfect. Few people will use that buggy
feature anyway."
So we have a triangle—each side with a different point of
view, and a different axe to grind. Who wins out? Well, the strength
of the sides clearly differs from company to company, product to
product, situation to situation, and individual to individual. But in
the long run, it's clear who eventually wins—it's always marketing.
They win because they have to win, because ultimately they're
right—you have to get the product out the door sooner or later, or the
company can't survive. You simply can't wait forever. QA can always
find more bugs, and if you give them their head, they will test
forever and the product will never ship.
So what happens in practice? How are products tested, bugs
found, and bugs fixed? The details of the procedure certainly varies
from company to company, but most companies do something like the
following. The software, once completed, goes through a round of
testing. QA identifies a bunch of bugs, and those bugs are classified
with respect to things like severity, user impact, frequency of
occurrence, and difficulty of correction.
The defect reports (description of the bugs) go back to the
developers for correction. Some (for example, errors in spelling a
message on the screen) are easy to correct, and can quickly be fixed
even if their impact is slight. Others may take longer, some much
longer. In some cases, the correction of an error may be so difficult,
perhaps even requiring a major rewrite of a large portion of the
software, that the developers rebel against fixing it at all. They may
argue that the error occurs only in an exceedingly unlikely and
infrequent situation.
Folks, like it or not, that argument is sometimes accepted.
The exigencies of getting the product out the door sometimes demand
that it be accepted. Nobody is particularly happy with that decision,
but it is seen as the only practical thing to do. Sometimes it's the
right decision; sometimes it's the wrong one.
So some of the errors get fixed, some of the fixes are still
being worked on, and other errors may be accepted as not worth the
effort of fixing. The partially-corrected software now goes back to
QA, and the whole process is repeated once more.
Test, identify bugs, fix some of them, resubmit for testing,
test, identify bugs, fix some of them, resubmit for testing... This
sequence is repeated again and again until management decides that the
product is good enough. It does not wait until there are no more bugs;
it waits until that "good enough" stage has been reached. There is no
alternative—it will never be perfect; QA can always find another bug
if you let them run another test.
So what is "good enough"? How do you know when that stage has
been reached? Different companies, different people will answer that
question differently, and even the same people will answer it
differently at different times, in different situations.
What goes into the determination? Questions like these: How
many bugs still remain? What is their severity?. How frequently do
they occur? What is the rate of finding new bugs—is QA still finding
bugs at the same rate as they started to, or have they slowed down?
Then there are the marketing questions. How late is the product? What
is the competition doing? Is their product out yet? Is the
competition's product stable or buggy?
So sooner or later, rightly or wrongly, the product is
released—and it always still has bugs. Some of those bugs are there
because they haven't been found by the testers, others are known, and
a conscious decision was made to ship the product with them remaining
in it.
What does this all mean? That all software is terrible and
equally bad? Not at all. I began by saying that all software had bugs,
not that all software is equally bad. One product has many
bugs—another may have far fewer. Some programs have severe problems,
perhaps completely crashing whenever an important feature is
used—another may have mostly minor problems. Some software has
problems are hard to recover from—others have simple workarounds.
Differences between software stability certainly exist, and
those differences can often be dramatic. But perfection—the absence of
all bugs—does not exist, can not exist, and will never exist.
OK, once more. All together now, "All software has bugs."

Well written, yes. I can't argue with that.
But let me add something in the form of a question. Do we want software?

If you answer "yes" then you have to settle for some pragmatic
methodology to give you the best tested.
And I put it to you that MS' way of doing it (ie. getting Joe Public to
test it on all kinds of different environments) is the best. Added to
which there's the continuing feedback from released products that MS get
daily from individual systems.

Ed
 
H

Helroy

?"KCB" wrote in message
?
choro said:
Yes but unfortunately the "Flash Harry" in question can't get an erection
for 64 bit Win7. It must still be waiting for its Viagra or Cialis.

IF and it is a big IF, IE9 is that much better than Google Chrome I'll be
very, very surprised. I use IE for M$ updates and only for M$ updates.

And I have certainly spent a lot of big bucks with them over the years. 7
Win XP's, 1 Vista and now 1 Win7, several Win95's, Win98's, the Millennium
version to say nothing of the earlier OS's plus over the years 4 different
versions of M$ Office. Naturally I get a bit disgruntled when I download
an add-on which I expect to work even if it is still in Beta.
Your problem is not that you were using IE9 beta, but that you were using
the 64-bit version, and not realizing that Flash does not work with it. You
can download a recently released version of Flash that is supposed to work
with 64-bit browsers at www.adobe.com.

========================================
The 64bit is from the labs adobe.
http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10_square.html
 
S

Stan Brown

*All* Software (except the simple "Hello World" type of software),
even released software, has bugs in it.
Well, yes, but that's a straw man. The real issue is whether it has
critical bugs. There's really no excuse for the kinds of security
vulnerabilities that are exposed so frequently in Windows.

The dirty little secret is that software companies try to develop
fast and then debug later. That is futile. You have to build safety
into the design up front; but that requires forethought and so
companies can't be bothered.

It's easy to bash Microsoft in general and Windows in particular, but
as far as I can see they all do it. That doesn't make it right.
 
S

Stan Brown

?"KCB" wrote in message
?
choro said:
[quoted text muted]
Win XP's, 1 Vista and now 1 Win7, several Win95's, Win98's, the Millennium
version to say nothing of the earlier OS's plus over the years 4 different
versions of M$ Office. Naturally I get a bit disgruntled when I download
an add-on which I expect to work even if it is still in Beta.
Your problem is not that you were using IE9 beta, but that you were using
the 64-bit version, and not realizing that Flash does not work with it. You
can download a recently released version of Flash that is supposed to work
with 64-bit browsers at www.adobe.com.

Please fix your quoting style. When you use that idiosyncratic
technique, and someone else follows up on it, it looks like you said
what you actually only quoted.

I'm aware that the recent updates to Windows Live Mail broke your
quoting style. Unfortunately that poses a painful choice to you:
either fix every quote manually, or get a real newsreader such as
Gravity or Forte Agent (to mention the two that come to mind at the
moment).

Thanks for your consideration!
 
H

Helroy

?Hope you can read this properly and stuff you Gravity reader where the sun
don't shine.

PLONK
 
K

Ken Blake

Well, yes, but that's a straw man. The real issue is whether it has
critical bugs. There's really no excuse for the kinds of security
vulnerabilities that are exposed so frequently in Windows.

The dirty little secret is that software companies try to develop
fast and then debug later. That is futile. You have to build safety
into the design up front; but that requires forethought and so
companies can't be bothered.

It's easy to bash Microsoft in general and Windows in particular, but
as far as I can see they all do it. That doesn't make it right.

I'm in almost complete agreement with what you say.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I don't like sounding like "alias", but by that criterion we are all
running beta versions of Windows 7. :-(
Heck, I seem to be running a beta version of my DNA...

And that's probably true of everyone (except Creationists and
Intelligent Designists, of course).
 
N

Nil

?Hope you can read this properly and stuff you Gravity reader
where the sun don't shine.
Is this a reply to something?

What's with the question mark? Espanol?
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Is this a reply to something?

What's with the question mark? Espanol?
The initial question mark is yet another feature of WLM, evidently.
 
M

milt

Used the first link or URL you gave in IE9 and ended up with iTunes
eventually and it was OK. But I'd rather stick with Google Chrome where
I have a shortcut already and all I have to do is to click it to get to
CBC Classical.

Incidentally when I tried the same URL with IE9 it said something like I
need Flash Player 10.1 and when clicked to get there, it merely said
Flash player 10.1 is not yet ready for64 bit IE9.

So much for M$! It is like going to a restaurant and ordering a Sunday
roast and they serve it to you with a "Sorry, but the roast potatoes are
not yet ready!"
Once again, do you not understand the concept of "Beta"?
 
M

milt

You realize that Flash is *not* a Microsoft product, don't you?
Damn it, you're letting logic get in the way of a perfectly good MS
bashing session. He even added in the oh so clever "M$" because that is
oh so original and clever!
 

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