Help and Support

[Ken Blake]

Hi, Ken.

I have a few random but related thoughts on this "dummies" topic.

My favorite Okie, Will Rogers, once said, "We are all ignorant, just about
different things."

Yes, I've seen that before, and also like it a lot. He was absolutely
right, of course

"Ignorant", of course, does not mean "stupid". It only means that we
haven't learned THAT thing...Yet.

Exactly.


When I got my first TRS-80 in 1977, I was certainly ignorant of almost
everything about computers.

Back in 1962, desperate for a job, I answered an ad that read
"Programmer Trainee. College Graduate. Any Major."

I didn't get the job, and at that time I didn't know what a computer
was, let alone what a programmer was. I thought a programmer was
someone who created radio or television programs (I got my first
programming job later that year).

But I mostly agree with you: I am ignorant of many things, but I don't
consider myself a Dummie. ;^}

Same here.

 

[Char Jackson]

Thanks for those, but since they wrapped badly here, for everyone's
convenience, I'll provide TinyURLs for both.

http://tinyurl.com/6qzplpp for #1
http://tinyurl.com/7o9j5ku for #2

I have a theory that says that some newsreaders, when posting long
strings of text such as URLs, treat them as single objects and
therefore don't apply the word wrap settings when it sees them
enclosed by brackets.

To test that theory, here (I hope) are the original URLs.

<http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=2632>
<http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc754340(v=ws.10).aspx>

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 3/06/2012, Zaphod Beeblebrox posted:
On 3/05/2012, VanguardLH posted:
And if Windows 7 has detailed descriptions of the syntax and function
of the command-line commands, I've been unable to find it.
Are you asking about the DOS-mode commands, like chkdsk and dir? What
happens when you type "help" in a command console?


Try getting information on "net start", for instance.
net start /?

I was going to post the same advice, but I tried it first and cancelled
my post. I'm on Windows 7 Pro 64 bit.

Here's why:

<Command window>
[C:] net start /?
The syntax of this command is:

NET START
[service]

</Command window>

And net /? is not much better.

Try "net start /help". Much better information than just /?, which
only gives syntax. Why MS didn't provide the full help with /? is
anyone's guess...

Geez. I never suspected that /? and /help were not synonymous :-(

Like you, I can't imagine why they aren't the same.

Thanks for the completely unexpected info!

You're welcome.

Another set of helpful resources are the Windows Command Reference help
file (available at http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?
id=2632) and the on-line reference http://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/cc754340(v=ws.10).aspx.

Thanks for those, but since they wrapped badly here, for everyone's
convenience, I'll provide TinyURLs for both.

http://tinyurl.com/6qzplpp for #1
http://tinyurl.com/7o9j5ku for #2

Thanks for that, Gene.

I've never been a fan of TinyURL or similar, but had I been paying
attention I'd have put them on separate lines and made sure that my
newsreader was set to a high enough line length to prevent the wrap
from happening on my end.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:36:55 -0800, Gene E. Bloch

[snip]

I find myself wondering how you know that the publishers are referring
specifically to you when they say "for Dummies".

Strawman! Who said anything about specific?

Who said "said"? I just can't otherwise understand why you'd feel
insulted, so I hypothesized that you somehow felt that there was an
insult and that it was intended for you, inter alia.

Well, I expect that he knows that it is possible for something to
insult more than one person.

Who said anything about only one person being specifically targeted?
Intended for x can easily mean that x is just one among several
targets. In fact, when I was replying to Ken, it so happens that I was
thinking of you as well, but decided to let just one reply work (or, I
guess, fail!) for both.

Sincerely,

And my question was sincere as well. I want to understand why you and
Ken feel insulted when so many others don't. One example: it just
*never* occurred to me to see an insult in the title.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:36:55 -0800, Gene E. Bloch


No, I didn't suggest that they were referring specifically to me. They
are referring to dummies to general. And if I buy one of their books,
I am identifying myself as one of those dummies. I won't do that.

Well, to me, that makes more sense than Gene's reply to Gene's post,
but for both of you, I wish to add that my question was sincere - your
reactions mystify me, and I did (probably still do) see it as your
taking the title as meant for you. And I don't mean that you explicitly
suggested it, I mean that's how your reaction comes across to me.

I see the titles as being a clever and cute way of saying that the
books are written to be easy for a beginner, and that a beginner
shouldn't be ashamed of being a newbie, and so I was charmed by the
idea from the first.

That said, I have found that some of the Dummies books I've bought
haven't lived up to my hopes. But that also goes for some books that
are meant and titled or targeted for non-dummies

 

[Ken Blake]

I see the titles as being a clever and cute way of saying that the
books are written to be easy for a beginner, and that a beginner
shouldn't be ashamed of being a newbie, and so I was charmed by the
idea from the first.

Your choice of course, but to me a dummy and a beginner are two
entirely different things.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 09:05:36 -0700, Ken Springer

I might be a senior these days, under some definitions, but I'm no
Dummie!

I know I'm in the minority, but I find the titles of all those "...for
Dummies" books insulting, and I refuse to buy them.

[...]

I give +4 in favor of the For Dummies series.

That's +1 each for Ken Springer, James Silverton, Nil, and Crash.

Basically, those four people have said all I could say.

And no, I don't see the books as perfect, just frequently useful for me.

BTW - I guess, given his nym, Dave "Crash" Dummy just *has* to like the For
Dummies books

I learned long ago that one essential learning tool is humility.

Agreed!

On more than one occasion, if I couldn't have taken the fact that I had
been stupid, I couldn't have learned from my helpers. I have known
people with that defect...it's not fun to deal with them.

In the other context here, I don't think I'm a dummy, at least not 100%
of the time...but I do have stories that cast major doubt on my
assertion

 

[Char Jackson]

Well, to me, that makes more sense than Gene's reply to Gene's post,
but for both of you, I wish to add that my question was sincere - your
reactions mystify me, and I did (probably still do) see it as your
taking the title as meant for you. And I don't mean that you explicitly
suggested it, I mean that's how your reaction comes across to me.

I see the titles as being a clever and cute way of saying that the
books are written to be easy for a beginner, and that a beginner
shouldn't be ashamed of being a newbie, and so I was charmed by the
idea from the first.

That said, I have found that some of the Dummies books I've bought
haven't lived up to my hopes. But that also goes for some books that
are meant and titled or targeted for non-dummies

Well said, Gene. I feel the same as you, and have the same questions.
The only thing I can add is that, for me, the content is more
important than the title. I don't understand being put off by a title
when the contents seem to get good reviews. I don't think I have any
Dummies books here on my bookshelves, but it's certainly not because
of the title.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

On 3/06/2012, Zaphod Beeblebrox posted:
On 3/05/2012, VanguardLH posted:
And if Windows 7 has detailed descriptions of the syntax and function
of the command-line commands, I've been unable to find it.
Are you asking about the DOS-mode commands, like chkdsk and dir? What
happens when you type "help" in a command console?


Try getting information on "net start", for instance.
net start /?

I was going to post the same advice, but I tried it first and cancelled
my post. I'm on Windows 7 Pro 64 bit.

Here's why:

<Command window>
[C:] net start /?
The syntax of this command is:

NET START
[service]

</Command window>

And net /? is not much better.
Try "net start /help". Much better information than just /?, which
only gives syntax. Why MS didn't provide the full help with /? is
anyone's guess...

Geez. I never suspected that /? and /help were not synonymous :-(

Like you, I can't imagine why they aren't the same.

Thanks for the completely unexpected info!
You're welcome.

Another set of helpful resources are the Windows Command Reference help
file (available at http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?
id=2632) and the on-line reference http://technet.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/cc754340(v=ws.10).aspx.

Thanks for those, but since they wrapped badly here, for everyone's
convenience, I'll provide TinyURLs for both.

http://tinyurl.com/6qzplpp for #1
http://tinyurl.com/7o9j5ku for #2

Thanks for that, Gene.

I've never been a fan of TinyURL or similar, but had I been paying
attention I'd have put them on separate lines and made sure that my
newsreader was set to a high enough line length to prevent the wrap
from happening on my end.

Also check out Char Jackson's reply to my post: his scheme with "<>"
worked in my newsreader (MesNews, this week).

But before sending this, I decided to check in Dialog as well.

1. Your post had the same problem.
2. Char's fix worked.

And so we keep on learning

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

On 3/06/2012, Ken Blake posted:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 09:05:36 -0700, Ken Springer


I might be a senior these days, under some definitions, but I'm no
Dummie!


I know I'm in the minority, but I find the titles of all those "...for
Dummies" books insulting, and I refuse to buy them.

[...]

I give +4 in favor of the For Dummies series.

That's +1 each for Ken Springer, James Silverton, Nil, and Crash.

Basically, those four people have said all I could say.

And no, I don't see the books as perfect, just frequently useful for me.

BTW - I guess, given his nym, Dave "Crash" Dummy just *has* to like the
For Dummies books

I learned long ago that one essential learning tool is humility.

Agreed!

On more than one occasion, if I couldn't have taken the fact that I had been
stupid, I couldn't have learned from my helpers. I have known people with
that defect...it's not fun to deal with them.

In the other context here, I don't think I'm a dummy, at least not 100% of
the time...but I do have stories that cast major doubt on my assertion

One experience of mine comes to mind about being a beginner/dummy, so
I'm going to impose it on my audience

The first code I ever wrote and tried to compile and run produced an
error message that "SUBROUTINE" appeared without an "END" statement. I
thought subroutine implied that the previous segment of code had ended,
so I couldn't understand the message. But then, the people I asked for
help just couldn't understand the way I asked my question because it
was way off the wall, so it took me a long time to get that sorted.

To clarify a bit: I thought that END was used only once, at the very
end of the whole deck, and that a subroutine in the middle of the deck
therefore implied the end of the main program. Not a bad idea, just
wrong in the context.

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:36:55 -0800, Gene E. Bloch

[snip]

I find myself wondering how you know that the publishers are referring
specifically to you when they say "for Dummies".

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Strawman! Who said anything about specific?

Who said "said"? I just can't otherwise understand why you'd feel
insulted, so I hypothesized that you somehow felt that there was an
insult and that it was intended for you, inter alia.

Well, I expect that he knows that it is possible for something to
insult more than one person.

Who said anything about only one person being specifically targeted?

You did above. I have underlined the word with carets.

Intended for x can easily mean that x is just one among several
targets. In fact, when I was replying to Ken, it so happens that I was
thinking of you as well, but decided to let just one reply work (or, I
guess, fail!) for both.


And my question was sincere as well. I want to understand why you and
Ken feel insulted when so many others don't. One example: it just
*never* occurred to me to see an insult in the title.

Maybe, we are just a bit more sensitive to nuances of language
and manners. I would not like being called a dummy to my face just
because I was a newbie. Doing the same in a book title is equally not
acceptable.

Why such an argument over someone wanting to be dealt with
politely? Good manners are a social lubricant.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

Gosh. If you think there is something "rude" about the "Dummies" series
of books than you REALLY need to get out a bit more....

Why do you defend rudeness?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 09:05:36 -0700, Ken Springer
I might be a senior these days, under some definitions, but I'm no
Dummie!
I know I'm in the minority, but I find the titles of all those "...for
Dummies" books insulting, and I refuse to buy them.

[...]

I give +4 in favor of the For Dummies series.

That's +1 each for Ken Springer, James Silverton, Nil, and Crash.

Basically, those four people have said all I could say.

And no, I don't see the books as perfect, just frequently useful for me.

BTW - I guess, given his nym, Dave "Crash" Dummy just *has* to like the
For Dummies books

I learned long ago that one essential learning tool is humility.

Agreed. OTOH, humiliation is not required.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:14:35 -0800, Gene E. Bloch

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:36:55 -0800, Gene E. Bloch

[snip]

I find myself wondering how you know that the publishers are referring
specifically to you when they say "for Dummies".

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Strawman! Who said anything about specific?

Who said "said"? I just can't otherwise understand why you'd feel
insulted, so I hypothesized that you somehow felt that there was an
insult and that it was intended for you, inter alia.

Just curious.

Well, I expect that he knows that it is possible for something to
insult more than one person.

Who said anything about only one person being specifically targeted?

You did above. I have underlined the word with carets.

Show me where the count mentioned is exactly one...

In fact, show me where *any* count is mentioned.

Maybe, we are just a bit more sensitive to nuances of language
and manners. I would not like being called a dummy to my face just
because I was a newbie. Doing the same in a book title is equally not
acceptable.

Why such an argument over someone wanting to be dealt with
politely? Good manners are a social lubricant.

Where then are your good manners?

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Why do you defend rudeness?

I don't see him defending anything. I see him asking where there is
rudeness.

Your reinterpretations of various remarks by others are beginning to
strike me as rude, even though you seem to be implying that you dislike
rudeness.

 

[Stan Brown]

Then you are in a minority of one....the "Dummy" range of books are
extremely popular, and not restricted to computing either....
I suggest you lighten up a bit....

If you're going to be insulting, at least be accurate.
It's a minority of two at least, as I posted yestereve.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I feel precisely the same way.

And what does it say if you buy one for someone else as a gift!

Interesting thought

So I went and asked someone how she would react if I gave her a Dummies
book as a gift. When she stopped laughing (moderate laughter only!),
she said she wouldn't mind as long as the book was helpful in an area
of interest to her.

YMMV, of course

 

[Char Jackson]

I would not like being called a dummy to my face just
because I was a newbie. Doing the same in a book title is equally not
acceptable.

Why do you give the power of humiliation to a book title? Do song
titles have equal power over you?

 

[Char Jackson]

Why do you defend rudeness?

You see rudeness where many others don't.

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

Why do you give the power of humiliation to a book title? Do song
titles have equal power over you?

I do not. I recognise the rudeness and move on, on to a book
that is politer.

sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko