Confused about todays updates

[BillW50]

In DanS typed on :

It's been in the works since 1990-something and has been an
ongoing project. Initially, it was just a popup menu program
based on an old Win3.11 program I used to use called Flash!
Menu.

I've not released it. A couple years ago, I was conversing with
someone over at ShellCity about it hoping they'd host it, but
they were hoping for some quantity of documentation before
they'd do it, there's virtually no documentation, and I *still*
haven't gotten around to actually creating some good
documentation.

Essentially, when you middle click, no matter what program
you're in, the shell window I designed will be shown at the
mouse position. (Or at least as close to the mouse position you
can get if you're near the edge of the screen.)

It has a system tray, task launcher, clock, control of startup
programs, etc. Nearly everything has been duplicated that
explorer does....nearly everything because we all know, the
shell documentation is pretty slim pickins'. You middle click to
show the shell window, then everything is right there to access
to minimize mouse movement. The design from the start was
supposed to be a minimalistic design, low RAM usage, non-
intrusive, so no typical desktop functionality is supported by
default. I'm sure peope wouldn't like that however, you know how
they like to fill the desktop with a 100 icons.

Like I said, this has been a long running project, so as
hardware speed increased, I decided to create a desktop module
as well. Yes, you can have icons on it, of any size, and save
and restore icon layouts. You can also add pictures to the
desktop to any size and position you like, so one can create a
collage of their favorite pictures on the desktop. I never use
the desktop module, but it was a good programming excercise.

I haven't created a real install package for it
since.....2003...v 0.0.3.0 and have been doing rolling updates
and running the 'test version'.

I worked out thumbnail previews for windows in the task manager,
but never implemented. At one point I was researching using
OpenGL to create an window overlaying system to implement
effects similar to Compiz & KDE's built-in effects, but, that
never took off.....I'm only one person doing this in my spare
time.....and then MS comes out with their own compositing window
manager with Vista anyway.....exactly what happened when I was
writing a multi-server Usenet binary downloader that worked and
look extremely similar to a beta version of a binary d/l'r
called Zeonews that I bought while still in beta, and the guy
stop developing it to move on to something else. I was 60% done
when NewsLeecher came out....which looked and worked extremely
similar to Zeonews, and my d/l'r.

The old manual for what I call DDT, circe 2006:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2694585/DDT_v.0.0.3.0.pdf

But it's changed significantly since.

I've created a 1 minute video showing some of the operation of
it if you'd like to see.

From my streaming server which will buffer some then start
playing....

http://freakneck.cjb.net:8000/Shell1.wmv

Or if you'd prefer a full d/l then play....

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2694585/Shell1.wmv

Looks all very interesting Dan. I could see myself using something like
this on some of my computers. ;-)

 

[DanS]

In
DanS typed on :

How many years of computer experience do you have again?
The list is huge. DR Always accused Microsoft of updating
Windows and breaking the ability for DR-DOS to work with
Windows for one. DR would fix it and then Microsoft would
update it again and break DR-DOS again. Also DR accused
Microsoft of later including MS-DOS into Windows 95 just to
kill of DR-DOS.

And in Microsoft's defense. They generally blame their
competitors of cheating and using undocumented API calls
which are unsupported and that is why their products break
when Windows gets updated. And the competitors fire back
that if they just used the API calls that they are supposed
too, their software would run so poorly that nobody would
buy it.

IMHO, there is a lot of truth on both sides of this issue.
And it is well documented that both sides don't play fair.
And the PBS documentarily: "Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise
of Accidental Empires" did a fair job of showing all of
this.

I never said MS hasn't been *accussed* of that stuff.

Where are all the lawsuits you claim they've been hit with because they update
Windows?

That's *exactly* what I asked about.

In my opinion, MS, being the owner and developer of Windows, has every right to do
whatever they want with Windows.

Here's what you said..."Scientific evidence with updates and without, history of
lawsuits against updates,"

I asked for what history of lawsuits.

 

[DanS]

In
DanS typed on :

Yes indeed. I also read about 2 dozen more articles on this
very subject.


Really? I don't see it that way. I routinely stick up for
Microsoft a lot. And this case is very interesting to me.
As Microsoft routinely does the same thing that HP was
being blamed for.

Microsoft images PCs with AMD processors with an image meant for Intel-based
systems and put an erroneous key in the registry ?

MS didn't even start selling PCs until recently in the MS stores.

So does other manufactures, IT
departments, etc. Yet just blaming HP is really wrong.

Uh...no, it's not. HP was the OEM of these PCs. HP created an image for them. And
I'm sure HP put all kinds of other crapware on there too that no one wanted.

There wasn't this issue widespread with home built boxes, or boxes from other OEMs
that were reported, so I wonder how you can say it's NOT the OEM fault.

So
if HP is wrong, so is everybody else.

Why is everybody else? And, who is everybody else? About what? We're talking this
specific incident that HP *caused*. That's it. No more, no less.

But you don't see it
that way, now do you Mr. Dan?

Nope. I don't see it that way. I see the truth....

.....as written in the 10 or 12 other articles I just read that all said the same thing....HP's
fault.

End of story.

 

[BillW50]

In

I never said MS hasn't been *accussed* of that stuff.

Then what's the problem then? END OF STORY!

Where are all the lawsuits you claim they've been hit with because
they update Windows?

That's *exactly* what I asked about.

And as a hint I cited "Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental
Empires". So what have you learned? And I said I can write a 700 page
book about this. And asked how many pages do you want? And if you get
ridiculous, I am going to have to charge you. So what's the problem?

In my opinion, MS, being the owner and developer of Windows, has
every right to do whatever they want with Windows.

Yes! And then everybody has the right to label Microsoft as a monopoly.
I was one that was claiming that Microsoft wasn't one (and I still claim
they are not one). But you if want to claim that they are... well
Microsoft needs to be no more then. Is that what you want?

Here's what you said..."Scientific evidence with updates and without,
history of lawsuits against updates,"

I asked for what history of lawsuits.

Oh God! See "Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires" for
Pete's sake!

 

[BillW50]

In

Microsoft images PCs with AMD processors with an image meant for
Intel-based systems and put an erroneous key in the registry ?

No, Microsoft images for both and then figures out what processor is
really there and goes from there. That is the way you are supposed to do
it. Not go by what files are on the hard drive. Hell clueless people
install crap all of the time and put tons of useless files in the System
folder. You can't go by that and even Microsoft knows better than that
or should.

MS didn't even start selling PCs until recently in the MS stores.

They sell PCs? And they call them MS PCs?

Uh...no, it's not. HP was the OEM of these PCs. HP created an image
for them. And I'm sure HP put all kinds of other crapware on there too
that no one wanted.

That is why Windows has Add/Remove for. And I know for my Gateway
computers there is a little known way to restore Windows with zero crap.
Not all Gateway computers came with this DVD though. And if it really
bothers you, just buy a retail version of Windows and be done with it.

There wasn't this issue widespread with home built boxes, or boxes
from other OEMs that were reported, so I wonder how you can say it's
NOT the OEM fault.

DON'T DARE GET ME STARTED WITH HOME BOXES! As you put A to B together
and it doesn't work and there is nobody to blame except stupid you for
buying them in the first place. At least with a name brand if it doesn't
work, take it back and get your money back.

Why is everybody else? And, who is everybody else? About what? We're
talking this specific incident that HP *caused*. That's it. No more,
no less.

No we are talking about a huge list. DR, GEOS, Netscape, AMD,
RealPlayer, Quicken, etc. you dumbass!

Nope. I don't see it that way. I see the truth....

You don't see the truth at all. You claim to have 20 years of computer
experience and I have over 35 years and I can't believe for a second
somebody with 20 years of computer experience can be so dumb!

....as written in the 10 or 12 other articles I just read that all
said the same thing....HP's fault.

End of story.

Yea what pure BS! And Microsoft is a monopoly too. And that is pure BS
too! And how much did Microsoft pay those damn lawyers to defend them?
And all they had to do is read my posts for nothing.

 

[Char Jackson]

DON'T DARE GET ME STARTED WITH HOME BOXES!

No we are talking about a huge list. DR, GEOS, Netscape, AMD,
RealPlayer, Quicken, etc. you dumbass!

You don't see the truth at all. You claim to have 20 years of computer
experience and I have over 35 years and I can't believe for a second
somebody with 20 years of computer experience can be so dumb!

Yea what pure BS! And Microsoft is a monopoly too. And that is pure BS
too! And how much did Microsoft pay those damn lawyers to defend them?
And all they had to do is read my posts for nothing.

I think someone needs to take their medicine.

 

[BillW50]

In

I think someone needs to take their medicine.

No Char... people like you need to take a class in computers 101. I am
totally unbiased. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong. I dare you Char!
But instead, all you can do is nothing! You can never produce a
documentary about anything since you know nothing anyway! Sure I too can
say something really stupid to you like to take your meds. But what
does that prove Char? I welcome intelligent conversations. And
intelligent evidence or more importantly proof that I am wrong. But pure
5 year old talk just doesn't cut it.

 

[DanS]

No Char... people like you need to take a class in
computers 101. I am totally unbiased. Go ahead and try to
prove me wrong. I dare you Char! But instead, all you can
do is nothing! You can never produce a documentary about
anything since you know nothing anyway!

I've asked you many times now for documentation to no avail.

So what's so different?

I could whip out the 'H' word here, as it applies perfectly here...but I won't.

Sure I too can say
something really stupid to you like to take your meds. But
what does that prove Char? I welcome intelligent
conversations. And intelligent evidence or more importantly
proof that I am wrong.

LO F'N LLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !!!!!!

You're joking right ??!?!?!?!?!?

 

[DanS]

In


Then what's the problem then? END OF STORY!


And as a hint I cited "Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of
Accidental Empires".

Whatever....

.......you made a claim that there have been tons of lawsuits regarding updating
Windows.....

.....I asked you to produce one.......just one cite.....I couldn't find anything via Google that
said anything about MS being sued for updating Windows, or the update
process......before I asked you to produce one....

.....but instead, you want me to watch a PBS documentary.....

.....you give the BS run-around....

In your other post you say...." I welcome intelligent conversations. And intelligent
evidence or more importantly proof that I am wrong."....

.....but you don't....

.....it's obvious.

Even to me, now.

 

[DanS]

Which of course, was NOT a problem with a Microsoft update
- a MS update may have uncovered it, but it was a problem
with the way HP delivered / imaged the systems. Quote from
your article: "The main problem, as Johansson and others
see it, happened because HP, and possibly other OEMs, used
the same images for AMD-based PCs that were used with
Intel-based hardware." In other words, HP screwed up, not
MS. Another quote from your article: "This is not an AMD
or Microsoft issue," Graves wrote. "It's an issue of
matching the correct software image with the correct
hardware."

If you screw up a machine, and a later MS update doesn't
work right, it is your fault, not MS. If the update didn't
reveal the problem, likely as not something else would have
revealed it or would have gone wrong. It was a ticking
time bomb, just waiting to go off.

That's what/how I read it, you read it, Char Jackson read it, Steel read it (if he read it),
even Alias read it like that, and I think anyone else even bothering to read this deep into a
thread like this read it the same way.......

 

[BillW50]

In

I've asked you many times now for documentation to no avail.

So what's so different?

I could whip out the 'H' word here, as it applies perfectly
here...but I won't.

This is the third time I am asking you fricken coward! One more time and
you are going to be labeled as a total moron! HOW MANY FRICKEN PAGES OF
CITES DO YOU WANT?

LO F'N LLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !!!!!!

You're joking right ??!?!?!?!?!?

Keep talking Dan! I am really suspecting you as a dumbass Microsoft
plant! And when I have enough evidence to prove it, you are going to be
history. So keep talking!

 

[BillW50]

In

Whatever....

......you made a claim that there have been tons of lawsuits
regarding updating Windows.....

Yes and anybody who claims to have 20 years of computer experience knows
this to be true.

....I asked you to produce one.......just one cite.....I couldn't
find anything via Google that said anything about MS being sued for
updating Windows, or the update
process......before I asked you to produce one....

I said this is basic computer 101 stuff. And I asked you how many pages
and you refuse to answer. I told you last time if you don't answer you
would be labeled as a dumbass, now didn't I?

....but instead, you want me to watch a PBS documentary.....

....you give the BS run-around....

You think that PBS documentary is a BS run-around? Many believe it is
the BEST documentary ever!

In your other post you say...." I welcome intelligent conversations.
And intelligent
evidence or more importantly proof that I am wrong."....

....but you don't....

....it's obvious.

Even to me, now.

Well you never stated how many pages of cites you would like. As I have
a million of them and all I wanted to know is were to start. But it is
clear you just are not smart enough and can't even bother to watch or
read the transcript free online which to me is computers 101. And you
don't know anything about any of it? You got to be kidding me?

 

[blank]

In DanS typed on :

How many years of computer experience do you have again? The list is huge.
DR Always accused Microsoft of updating Windows and breaking the ability
for DR-DOS to work with Windows for one. DR would fix it and then
Microsoft would update it again and break DR-DOS again. Also DR accused
Microsoft of later including MS-DOS into Windows 95 just to kill of
DR-DOS.

Netscape was another one always blaming Microsoft. In the early days
Netscape was the clear leader in the Windows browser market. And when
Microsoft updated Windows, interesting enough Netscape would break.
Netscape would fix it and Microsoft would update Windows again and break
it again.

GEOS, Norton, Quicken, AMD, and zillions of others would accuse Wintel
(Microsoft and Intel) of using updates just to break their competitors
products. All of this is all well known, been well documented, videos
made, lawsuits filed, etc. And you want cites? You are kidding right? This
is computers 101 stuff. Okay, well I could write a 700 page book on this
alone. So how many pages do you want me to cite? If you get ridiculous,
I'll have to charge you by the page. ;-)

And in Microsoft's defense. They generally blame their competitors of
cheating and using undocumented API calls which are unsupported and that
is why their products break when Windows gets updated. And the competitors
fire back that if they just used the API calls that they are supposed too,
their software would run so poorly that nobody would buy it.

IMHO, there is a lot of truth on both sides of this issue. And it is well
documented that both sides don't play fair. And the PBS documentarily:
"Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires" did a fair job of
showing all of this.

Very true and very reasonably put. But without reading the rest of the
thread Bill, I don't think your protagonists will be persuaded. Their minds
are closed.

 

[BillW50]

In

That's what/how I read it, you read it, Char Jackson read it, Steel
read it (if he read it), even Alias read it like that, and I think
anyone else even bothering to read this deep into a thread like this
read it the same way.......

Yeah right. When Microsoft releases updates and it doesn't work,
Microsoft is instantly blameless! So what planet are you from Dan? On
planet Earth, if you make changes to an OS and something breaks. It is
the responsibility of the one who made the changes. You just can't make
changes and have zero responsibly for what happens!

The more you talk, the more I am having a hard time believing you have
20 years of experience with computers. As to me with 35+ years you sound
really naive. And more and more you are sounding just like a naive
Microsoft plant. As in the past, Microsoft used to have far better
plants. Somewhat far more intelligent. But you know how companies are
with budgets lately. Just hire somebody who used to flip burgers and
they will do.

 

[BillW50]

In

Very true and very reasonably put. But without reading the rest of the
thread Bill, I don't think your protagonists will be persuaded. Their
minds are closed.

You are indeed a smart one. Yes I know my efforts are probably futile
(but I forget sometimes so thank you). Then again, there is nothing good
on TV tonight. ;-)

 

[Robert Sudbury]

To be fair, but without condoning Bill's espousing of arguably risky and
irresponsible patch management behaviour, I have encountered one Windows
Update that caused issues; somewhere around 2006 or 2007 I think ...

After applying this particular Windows patch to any system with Realtek
Audio, the system would find itself sans audio. This affected about 3500 of
our WXP clients. It took me a day to create a fix and deploy to affected
systems. The very next day Microsoft released an updated patch that didn't
cause that issue.

Or it's because I'm not having any of the problems on any of my
systems that you're having on multiple systems.

--

Char Jackson

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 6771 (20120105) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

--
[Robert]


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6771 (20120105) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

[Robert Sudbury]

35 Years of experience doesn't mean some one with 6 months can't come up
with a situation and a more efficient or practical solution that would have
never occurred to you. Value variety.

Contests on who has the longest, experience, rarely proves anything other
than perhaps who has the most inflated, ego.

Bill, it would help your argument if the articles you cite weren't 6-10
years obsolete, or quoted out of context. Virtually everything you have
cited contains multiple contrary and disclamatory remarks later in the same
article debunking your argument.

It would also help to know how exactly your position could in all
practicality be executed efficiently among the 4 billion or so computer
users on the planet; with the same effort they use now, to be like you.
Considering the millions upon millions of combinations and permutations of
hardware, software, skill levels, ages, languages, habits, ... etc, ad
nauseum, it's beyond unreasonable, it's patently impossible.

The best one can hope for is to hold the owner of copyright responsible for
delivering a product, and maintaining the contractual trust between the user
and vendor in a timely and efficient manner. Hence, Microsoft's Windows
Update. Use or not use at your own risk. ... aka caveat emptor. Without
that, the vendor risks alienating their market, their image, their share
holders ...

I would have a far harder sell to TPTB against using Microsoft Update, than
I would for, and for good reason.

Your arguments so far do not scale well into an enterprise environment.

In

Yeah right. When Microsoft releases updates and it doesn't work, Microsoft
is instantly blameless! So what planet are you from Dan? On planet Earth,
if you make changes to an OS and something breaks. It is the
responsibility of the one who made the changes. You just can't make
changes and have zero responsibly for what happens!

The more you talk, the more I am having a hard time believing you have 20
years of experience with computers. As to me with 35+ years you sound
really naive. And more and more you are sounding just like a naive
Microsoft plant. As in the past, Microsoft used to have far better plants.
Somewhat far more intelligent. But you know how companies are with budgets
lately. Just hire somebody who used to flip burgers and they will do.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 6771 (20120105) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

--
[Robert]


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 6771 (20120105) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 6771 (20120105) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6771 (20120105) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

[DanS]

In


Yeah right. When Microsoft releases updates and it doesn't
work, Microsoft is instantly blameless! So what planet are
you from Dan? On planet Earth, if you make changes to an OS
and something breaks. It is the responsibility of the one
who made the changes. You just can't make changes and have
zero responsibly for what happens!

The subject was the HP and SP3 update issue. That's all. This *one* "issue" that you
cited as proof that MS updates routinely cause widespread havoc.

That is what the article I read was about. And that was what I read 8 or 10 *OTHER*
articles about, and they said the same thing. It wasn't MS but HPs fault. And that's what
I was talking about when I said others saw it the same way.

That's all ....nothing more...nothing less.

Why can't you seem to grasp that?

Don't go out and wrap that up in some all encompassing theory about what I believe
and don't believe. I will tell you and everyone else that's reading these what *I* believe,
and what my opinions are.

Unless you have *any* cite of *any* respectable article, *****REGARDING THE OEM
HP XP TO SP3 UPDATE ISSUE ONLY***, that says this was a MS problem and not
cause by HP, this thread is done.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

In

That's what/how I read it, you read it, Char Jackson read it, Steel
read it (if he read it), even Alias read it like that, and I think
anyone else even bothering to read this deep into a thread like this
read it the same way.......

DanS - Apologies for replying to you by using BillW50's post, but your
posts don't show up for me on Eternal September. I wonder if I've
managed to killfile you, though from the quotes I've seen in other
posts you seem like a reasonable guy so I'm not sure why I would have.

In any case, it is pretty telling that of the many competent computer
users and long-time professionals that post here, none experience the
issues BillW50 does, yet s/he maintains that it is everyone else that
is wrong, incompetent and clueless about computers.

--
Zaphod

Arthur: All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's
something big and sinister going on in the world.
Slartibartfast: No, that's perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the
universe gets that.

 

[Shoe]

In DanS typed on :

How many years of computer experience do you have again? The list is
huge. DR Always accused Microsoft of updating Windows and breaking the
ability for DR-DOS to work with Windows for one. DR would fix it and
then Microsoft would update it again and break DR-DOS again. Also DR
accused Microsoft of later including MS-DOS into Windows 95 just to kill
of DR-DOS.

Netscape was another one always blaming Microsoft. In the early days
Netscape was the clear leader in the Windows browser market. And when
Microsoft updated Windows, interesting enough Netscape would break.
Netscape would fix it and Microsoft would update Windows again and break
it again.

GEOS, Norton, Quicken, AMD, and zillions of others would accuse Wintel
(Microsoft and Intel) of using updates just to break their competitors
products. All of this is all well known, been well documented, videos
made, lawsuits filed, etc. And you want cites? You are kidding right?
This is computers 101 stuff. Okay, well I could write a 700 page book on
this alone. So how many pages do you want me to cite? If you get
ridiculous, I'll have to charge you by the page. ;-)

And in Microsoft's defense. They generally blame their competitors of
cheating and using undocumented API calls which are unsupported and that
is why their products break when Windows gets updated. And the
competitors fire back that if they just used the API calls that they are
supposed too, their software would run so poorly that nobody would buy
it.

IMHO, there is a lot of truth on both sides of this issue. And it is
well documented that both sides don't play fair. And the PBS
documentarily: "Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires"
did a fair job of showing all of this.

I had first hand experience with the DR-DOS episode. I was running
that DOS and upgraded to a newer version of Windows, maybe Windows 3,
I'm not sure. Suddenly, Windows would not run, kept giving me an error
related to DR-DOS. Per the DR-DOS web site, they were working on a
fix, but I gave up and bought MSDOS. Deliberate or not, it certainly
killed off DR-DOS.