Backup folders?

[Kenny]

I have on my PC, on a separate drive, a folder titled KENNYCARGILL-PC
which has a number of "Backup Sets" totalling 66GB, also another folder
titled WindowsImageBackup which is 41GB.
How are these, if at all, connected to System Restore and can I delete
them to recover space?
Incidentally I can't open these as myself as user, it asks for a
password and will not accept my usual login password, I have to switch
to Administrator even though I have Administrator privileges.
I don't trust system Restore because it failed with me before and I use
Paragon Drive Backup for this purpose.
Replies appreciated.

Kenny Cargill

 

[Gordon]

I have on my PC, on a separate drive, a folder titled KENNYCARGILL-PC
which has a number of "Backup Sets" totalling 66GB, also another
folder titled WindowsImageBackup which is 41GB.
How are these, if at all, connected to System Restore and can I delete
them to recover space?
Incidentally I can't open these as myself as user, it asks for a
password and will not accept my usual login password, I have to switch
to Administrator even though I have Administrator privileges.
I don't trust system Restore because it failed with me before and I
use Paragon Drive Backup for this purpose.
Replies appreciated.

Kenny Cargill

Is this a PHYSICAL separate drive, or is this just a partition of your
one hard disk? If the latter then the backups aren't worth doing because
if the HDD fails then the backups won't be accessible.

 

[Ken Blake]

Is this a PHYSICAL separate drive, or is this just a partition of your
one hard disk? If the latter then the backups aren't worth doing because
if the HDD fails then the backups won't be accessible.

I agree, but I go even farther than that. Even if it's a separate
internal physical drive, it's a very weak form of backup.

I don't recommend backup to a second non-removable hard drive because
it leaves you susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and
backup to many of the most common dangers: severe power glitches,
nearby lightning strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.

In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not kept
in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for example, if the
life of your business depends on your data) you should have multiple
generations of backup, and at least one of those generations should be
stored off-site.

 

[Char Jackson]

I agree, but I go even farther than that. Even if it's a separate
internal physical drive, it's a very weak form of backup.

I don't recommend backup to a second non-removable hard drive because
it leaves you susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and
backup to many of the most common dangers: severe power glitches,
nearby lightning strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.

I agree that those are the most common things to watch for, but being
realistic for a minute, as a group they are extremely uncommon, except
perhaps the theft issue where a laptop is involved, but most laptops
don't have a second drive so you're probably referring to desktop
systems, in which case uncommon isn't a strong enough word. Bottom
line, a recent backup to a second internal drive is far better than
most alternatives because everything else is much less convenient and
therefore much more unlikely to happen on any kind of decent schedule.

In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not kept
in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for example, if the
life of your business depends on your data) you should have multiple
generations of backup, and at least one of those generations should be
stored off-site.

We're in agreement on the business scenario. Not so much with the
other scenarios. To me, the most important thing is to get people to
make backups on a regular basis, and that usually entails backing up
to a second internal drive and sometimes (horrors!) backing up to a
second partition on the first drive. Only after that is accomplished
on a regular basis do I offer some of the alternatives you mention.

For example, many of my customers, after experiencing severe data loss
(usually due to user error rather than hardware failure), ask me to
set up automatic backups for them. Well, configuring their backup
program to run periodically is easy enough, but I can't automate the
physical connection of an external drive and I can't stuff blank DVD's
into their drive, and I know I can't rely on them to do it, so I have
to do something that 'just happens'. Network backup has its own set of
issues, so backing up to a second internal drive, if available, is the
best and most realistic alternative. A few have asked for a 'backup to
the cloud' solution and I'm happy to set that up, but those aren't
free and they rely on a working Internet connection.

 

[Ken Blake]

I agree that those are the most common things to watch for, but being
realistic for a minute, as a group they are extremely uncommon,

True, some things are much more common than others, but they are all
things that happen. To take a single example, I know two people who
recently lost all their hard drives to a nearby lightning strike.

except
perhaps the theft issue where a laptop is involved, but most laptops
don't have a second drive so you're probably referring to desktop
systems, in which case uncommon isn't a strong enough word. Bottom
line, a recent backup to a second internal drive is far better than
most alternatives because everything else is much less convenient and
therefore much more unlikely to happen on any kind of decent schedule.

I strongly disagree. Here are two much safer and extremely convenient
scheduled kinds of backup:

1. Carbonite

2. Windows Home Server.

And even if you have do unscheduled manual backups to external drives,
yes, it's less convenient, but if your files are really important to
do, it's *much* safer than backup to internal drives.

The choice is more convenience vs. more safety. Each person has to
make up his own mind about that, but I know what my choice is.

We're in agreement on the business scenario. Not so much with the
other scenarios. To me, the most important thing is to get people to
make backups on a regular basis, and that usually entails backing up
to a second internal drive and sometimes (horrors!) backing up to a
second partition on the first drive. Only after that is accomplished
on a regular basis do I offer some of the alternatives you mention.

I someone has to choose between backup to a second internal drive and
no regular backup at all, I agree with you. But I don't agree that
nobody can do regular manual backups. Plugging in a USB external drive
and starting a backup manually isn't that hard.

For example, many of my customers, after experiencing severe data loss
(usually due to user error rather than hardware failure), ask me to
set up automatic backups for them. Well, configuring their backup
program to run periodically is easy enough, but I can't automate the
physical connection of an external drive and I can't stuff blank DVD's
into their drive, and I know I can't rely on them to do it, so I have
to do something that 'just happens'. Network backup has its own set of
issues,

WHS backup is very easy.

so backing up to a second internal drive, if available, is the
best and most realistic alternative.

For some. Not for everybody and not what I recommend. I would
recommend it only to someone who won't take the easy step of doing it
to an external drive.

A few have asked for a 'backup to
the cloud' solution and I'm happy to set that up, but those aren't
free and they rely on a working Internet connection.

No, they're not free , but Carbonite is easy and works very well. For
home users, it costs $59 a year. That may be too much money for some
people, but it's hardly a fortune.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Plugging in a USB external drive
and starting a backup manually isn't that hard.

For example, Macrium will make a backup program that can be run by
double-clicking a shortcut. It can be an XML descriptor, a VB program,
or a batch file, and will always make the same backup, such as an
incremental image of C: to a particular USB drive.

I think I recall that Acronis has the same ability.

If the user leaves the drive plugged in and once in a while clicks on
the shortcut, it is pretty easy. The user still has to make sure he
doesn't overfill the USB disk

I'm fuzzy on details, since Macrium is easy enough to use that I usually
just run through the wizard.

I did a long time ago set up a script for another user to run Macrium at
02:00 local time with an incremental backup to the USB drive. I set it
up so that all that was necessary was to sleep the computer instead of
shutting it down.

 

[Char Jackson]

True, some things are much more common than others, but they are all
things that happen. To take a single example, I know two people who
recently lost all their hard drives to a nearby lightning strike.

Come on, I didn't say they are things that don't happen. I said they
are things that are extremely unlikely.

I strongly disagree. Here are two much safer and extremely convenient
scheduled kinds of backup:

1. Carbonite

2. Windows Home Server.

WHS, seriously? I can count the number of my friends, relatives,
coworkers, neighbors, and customers who have WHS on one finger. As for
Carbonite, they are one of the "backup to the cloud" solutions that I
mentioned earlier, but within that genre Carbonite doesn't get very
good reviews. SOS Online Backup tends to come out ahead and is what I
recommend to a customer who wants online backup.

And even if you have do unscheduled manual backups to external drives,
yes, it's less convenient, but if your files are really important to
do, it's *much* safer than backup to internal drives.

Safer, but definitely not *much* safer. Couple that with the increased
hassle and it becomes a task that just doesn't get done reliably.
People have the best intentions, but when the backup program fires up
on schedule and prompts them to connect the target drive, they are
much more likely to click Cancel. Maybe my pool of steady customers is
unusual, but I doubt it.

The choice is more convenience vs. more safety. Each person has to
make up his own mind about that, but I know what my choice is.

You're very clearly overstating the risks of backing up to an internal
drive and understating the convenience factor that ensures the task
gets done on schedule, so I guess we'll have to agree to strongly
disagree. YMMV, but I know that for me I'd much rather have a customer
who has regular and recent backups than a customer who says, "Oh, I
meant to, but forgot."

I someone has to choose between backup to a second internal drive and
no regular backup at all, I agree with you. But I don't agree that
nobody can do regular manual backups. Plugging in a USB external drive
and starting a backup manually isn't that hard.

I'm not sure I said nobody can do regular manual backups, (I didn't,
in fact), but the majority of the people I know certainly fall in that
category. When a customers does bring in a USB drive containing
backups, in nearly 100% of the cases I see very large and very
irregular gaps between the backups. That tells me that they do backups
not on the schedule that I've set up for them, but on a schedule that
is convenient to them. It's not all that surprising.

WHS backup is very easy.

Irrelevant when so few people have it.

For some. Not for everybody and not what I recommend. I would
recommend it only to someone who won't take the easy step of doing it
to an external drive.

It's ok with me if we disagree. My recommendation is different from
yours.

No, they're not free , but Carbonite is easy and works very well. For
home users, it costs $59 a year. That may be too much money for some
people, but it's hardly a fortune.

If you like Carbonite, you'll probably love SOS Online Backup. When it
comes to online backups, though, I'm not a big fan. There are way too
many cons.

 

[kreed]

"Char Jackson" wrote in message

True, some things are much more common than others, but they are all
things that happen. To take a single example, I know two people who
recently lost all their hard drives to a nearby lightning strike.

Come on, I didn't say they are things that don't happen. I said they
are things that are extremely unlikely.

I strongly disagree. Here are two much safer and extremely convenient
scheduled kinds of backup:

1. Carbonite

2. Windows Home Server.

WHS, seriously? I can count the number of my friends, relatives,
coworkers, neighbors, and customers who have WHS on one finger. As for
Carbonite, they are one of the "backup to the cloud" solutions that I
mentioned earlier, but within that genre Carbonite doesn't get very
good reviews. SOS Online Backup tends to come out ahead and is what I
recommend to a customer who wants online backup.

And even if you have do unscheduled manual backups to external drives,
yes, it's less convenient, but if your files are really important to
do, it's *much* safer than backup to internal drives.

Safer, but definitely not *much* safer. Couple that with the increased
hassle and it becomes a task that just doesn't get done reliably.
People have the best intentions, but when the backup program fires up
on schedule and prompts them to connect the target drive, they are
much more likely to click Cancel. Maybe my pool of steady customers is
unusual, but I doubt it.

The choice is more convenience vs. more safety. Each person has to
make up his own mind about that, but I know what my choice is.

You're very clearly overstating the risks of backing up to an internal
drive and understating the convenience factor that ensures the task
gets done on schedule, so I guess we'll have to agree to strongly
disagree. YMMV, but I know that for me I'd much rather have a customer
who has regular and recent backups than a customer who says, "Oh, I
meant to, but forgot."

I someone has to choose between backup to a second internal drive and
no regular backup at all, I agree with you. But I don't agree that
nobody can do regular manual backups. Plugging in a USB external drive
and starting a backup manually isn't that hard.

I'm not sure I said nobody can do regular manual backups, (I didn't,
in fact), but the majority of the people I know certainly fall in that
category. When a customers does bring in a USB drive containing
backups, in nearly 100% of the cases I see very large and very
irregular gaps between the backups. That tells me that they do backups
not on the schedule that I've set up for them, but on a schedule that
is convenient to them. It's not all that surprising.

WHS backup is very easy.

Irrelevant when so few people have it.

For some. Not for everybody and not what I recommend. I would
recommend it only to someone who won't take the easy step of doing it
to an external drive.

It's ok with me if we disagree. My recommendation is different from
yours.

No, they're not free , but Carbonite is easy and works very well. For
home users, it costs $59 a year. That may be too much money for some
people, but it's hardly a fortune.

If you like Carbonite, you'll probably love SOS Online Backup. When it
comes to online backups, though, I'm not a big fan. There are way too
many cons.

--

Char Jackson

************************************************************

If you have more than one PC then WHS is definitely the best option
Just because you only know one person that has one does not make it
irrelevant

K

 

[Char Jackson]

If you have more than one PC then WHS is definitely the best option
Just because you only know one person that has one does not make it
irrelevant

It's not irrelevant because it's a bad option, it's irrelevant because
so few people have it.

 

[kreed]

"Char Jackson" wrote in message

If you have more than one PC then WHS is definitely the best option
Just because you only know one person that has one does not make it
irrelevant

It's not irrelevant because it's a bad option, it's irrelevant because
so few people have it.

--

Char Jackson

*********************************************************

I've had one running here for over 3 years with 8 PCs attached to it and I
say its a very good option,
but you are entitled to your opinion even though you say you have little
experience of the WHS

K

 

[Char Jackson]

It's not irrelevant because it's a bad option, it's irrelevant because
so few people have it.

--

Char Jackson

*********************************************************

I've had one running here for over 3 years with 8 PCs attached to it and I
say its a very good option,

And I didn't disagree, did I? I simply said it's irrelevant because so
few people have it.

but you are entitled to your opinion even though you say you have little
experience of the WHS

I didn't say anything about my experience with WHS. Do you really read
this badly or are you just trolling?

P.S. Is there any chance of you upgrading to a proper newsreader? WLM
v15 is the worst choice you could have made.

 

[kreed]

"Char Jackson" wrote in message

It's not irrelevant because it's a bad option, it's irrelevant because
so few people have it.

--

Char Jackson

*********************************************************

I've had one running here for over 3 years with 8 PCs attached to it and I
say its a very good option,

And I didn't disagree, did I? I simply said it's irrelevant because so
few people have it.

but you are entitled to your opinion even though you say you have little
experience of the WHS

I didn't say anything about my experience with WHS. Do you really read
this badly or are you just trolling?

P.S. Is there any chance of you upgrading to a proper newsreader? WLM
v15 is the worst choice you could have made.

--

Char Jackson

*******************************************************************

You said: " I can count the number of my friends, relatives,
coworkers, neighbors, and customers who have WHS on one finger."

Doesn't really shout loads of experience!

Perhaps if people like you stopped making derogatory comments about WHS more
people would discover its benefits.

It is the ideal solution for backing up Home and Small Office networks, as
well as providing central storage for media and other shared data, with a
user friendly GUI.

And it is a bit of an effort to read some of the tosh you write.
K

 

[Ken Blake]

For example, Macrium will make a backup program that can be run by
double-clicking a shortcut. It can be an XML descriptor, a VB program,
or a batch file, and will always make the same backup, such as an
incremental image of C: to a particular USB drive.

I think I recall that Acronis has the same ability.

If the user leaves the drive plugged in and once in a while clicks on
the shortcut, it is pretty easy. The user still has to make sure he
doesn't overfill the USB disk

Yes, but if you leave the drive plugged in, it has almost exactly the
same disadvantages as backing up to an internal drive. I strongly
recommend that you do *not* leave it plugged in. If the software
prompts you to plug it in, and you have to do that manually, it's
hardly a significant amount of trouble.

 

[Ken Blake]

Irrelevant when so few people have it.

I don't agree. It's a good thing to get, even if you get it solely for
its backup capability. You can put together a computer to run it
(with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse) for just $200-300. You need
nothing more than a case, an inexpensive motherboard, a slow CPU,
512MB of RAM, a big hard drive and a DVD drive.

As for
Carbonite, they are one of the "backup to the cloud" solutions that I
mentioned earlier, but within that genre Carbonite doesn't get very
good reviews. SOS Online Backup tends to come out ahead and is what I
recommend to a customer who wants online backup.

OK, I've never used either, and my knowledge about Carbonite is all
second-hand. If you say SOS Online Backup is better, I'll believe you.
However I see that it's more expensive than Carbonite--at least $79.95
a year, and more likely $99.95.

 

[Ken Blake]

It's not irrelevant because it's a bad option, it's irrelevant because
so few people have it.

If something is good and you don't have it, you should get it.

 

[Ken Blake]

You said: " I can count the number of my friends, relatives,
coworkers, neighbors, and customers who have WHS on one finger."

Doesn't really shout loads of experience!

Perhaps if people like you stopped making derogatory comments about WHS more
people would discover its benefits.

It is the ideal solution for backing up Home and Small Office networks, as
well as providing central storage for media and other shared data, with a
user friendly GUI.

And it is a bit of an effort to read some of the tosh you write.

As much as I agree with you and disagree with Char about WHS, and
about backup in general, I completely disagree with you regarding that
last sentence. Char's posts are usually very good, and I agree with
him more often than not.

 

[Char Jackson]

I don't agree. It's a good thing to get, even if you get it solely for
its backup capability. You can put together a computer to run it
(with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse) for just $200-300. You need
nothing more than a case, an inexpensive motherboard, a slow CPU,
512MB of RAM, a big hard drive and a DVD drive.

You don't agree about what? That so few people have it? I don't
understand what you're disagreeing about.

OK, I've never used either, and my knowledge about Carbonite is all
second-hand. If you say SOS Online Backup is better, I'll believe you.
However I see that it's more expensive than Carbonite--at least $79.95
a year, and more likely $99.95.

Not that many people have just one computer in the house these days,
at least around my area. Carbonite is $59.99 per year per computer,
while SOS is $79.99 per year for up to 5 computers. If cost is the
deciding factor, the choice is easy, and note that significant
discounts are available for multi-year subscriptions.

 

[Char Jackson]

Yes, but if you leave the drive plugged in, it has almost exactly the
same disadvantages as backing up to an internal drive. I strongly
recommend that you do *not* leave it plugged in. If the software
prompts you to plug it in, and you have to do that manually, it's
hardly a significant amount of trouble.

I fully agree, yet I see from personal experience that it doesn't get
done reliably. The only conclusion I can draw is that it's somewhat
more than zero trouble, and apparently enough that some won't bother.
Those are the people I get to deal with on a regular basis.

Keep in mind that I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone
who gets to recover data from crashed systems almost daily. I only see
the bad side of things, after something has gone seriously wrong, so I
may be a bit jaded.

 

[Char Jackson]

If something is good and you don't have it, you should get it.

As good as that advice is, and as general as it is, I can't think of a
single one of my customers to whom it would apply WRT WHS. To them,
it's going to be another computer, with all of its associated costs
including acquisition, power consumption, and system administration.
It's a hard sell, which brings us back around to the question of why
so few people use it.

 

[Char Jackson]

As much as I agree with you and disagree with Char about WHS, and
about backup in general, I completely disagree with you regarding that
last sentence. Char's posts are usually very good, and I agree with
him more often than not.

Thanks for that, Ken. I feel the same way about you and your posts,
and I think occasional disagreement is good for the overall group.