32 GB memory stick

[Ed Cryer]

http://tinyurl.com/5t8c2zl

I bought one, and it works; or at least it has the once that I've used
it to backup my personal files.

Where's it all going to end? It's not that long ago that I bought a 1TB
hard drive, and now they're up to 3TB (And no, don't tell me if by the
time you read this they've got even bigger).

Ed

 

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

Where's it all going to end? It's not that long ago that I bought a 1TB
hard drive, and now they're up to 3TB (And no, don't tell me if by the
time you read this they've got even bigger).

Objects get bigger and so there is a demand for more storage. It
wasn't that long ago that we were worrying about how to store a page
of text. Now it's not unusual to store two hour high resolution
movies. In my case there is little demand for better or bigger
hardware because I'm a tight get and I don't collect anything that
needs storage. I replace my hardware about once every six years and my
software every second or third version. The biggest drive I have is
1TB and is about 3% full so I don't think I will replace it for a
decade or two unless it breaks.

Steve

--
Neural network software applications, help and support.

Neural Network Software. www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. www.justnn.com

 

[Dave \Crash\ Dummy]

Objects get bigger and so there is a demand for more storage. It
wasn't that long ago that we were worrying about how to store a page
of text. Now it's not unusual to store two hour high resolution
movies. In my case there is little demand for better or bigger
hardware because I'm a tight get and I don't collect anything that
needs storage. I replace my hardware about once every six years and
my software every second or third version. The biggest drive I have
is 1TB and is about 3% full so I don't think I will replace it for a
decade or two unless it breaks.

I know what you mean. I have three 500 GB drives, two internal and one
external. Most of the space is unallocated. I use about 100 GB total,
including backups and archives. Most of it is expendable duplication,
but since I have the space...

 

[rfdjr1]

http://tinyurl.com/5t8c2zl

I bought one, and it works; or at least it has the once that I've used
it to backup my personal files.

Where's it all going to end? It's not that long ago that I bought a 1TB
hard drive, and now they're up to 3TB (And no, don't tell me if by the
time you read this they've got even bigger).

Ed

I remember my very first computer, a Christmas gift from my wife 29 years ago.,
It was custom built and the guy put in an 80Mb hard drive. He said to me "You'll
never run out of space"! That was terabytes ago!

 

[Irwell]

http://tinyurl.com/5t8c2zl

I bought one, and it works; or at least it has the once that I've used
it to backup my personal files.

How safe are memory sticks for long term storage?

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I remember my very first computer, a Christmas gift from my wife 29
years ago.,
It was custom built and the guy put in an 80Mb hard drive. He said
to me "You'll
never run out of space"! That was terabytes ago!

Not to go too far OT down memory lane, but my first IBM Compatible
computer was an 8088 at 4.77MHz with 640KB RAM and a whopping 30MB
hard drive running DOS 3.1. At the time, it was a top of the line PC,
made by Packard Bell. Unlike many PCs available then, mine only had a
single 5.25" FDD because you didn't need the 2nd FDD since it had an
HDD...

 

[Quilljar]

If you don't collect music or comic or nasty videos, you don't need all that
space. After 12 years of computing and taking family photograph stills, I
find that 300 Gb is more than enough!

Q

wrote in message

http://tinyurl.com/5t8c2zl

I bought one, and it works; or at least it has the once that I've used
it to backup my personal files.

Where's it all going to end? It's not that long ago that I bought a 1TB
hard drive, and now they're up to 3TB (And no, don't tell me if by the
time you read this they've got even bigger).

Ed

I remember my very first computer, a Christmas gift from my wife 29 years
ago.,
It was custom built and the guy put in an 80Mb hard drive. He said to me
"You'll
never run out of space"! That was terabytes ago!

 

[Char Jackson]

I know what you mean. I have three 500 GB drives, two internal and one
external. Most of the space is unallocated. I use about 100 GB total,
including backups and archives. Most of it is expendable duplication,
but since I have the space...

I recently did my annual cleaning of my computer junk box and tossed
out 5 80GB drives, 2 500GB's, 2 750's, and a 1TB. I figure they're
just too small to be of any real use and aren't worth wasting a SATA
port.

When I say tossed out, I mean I dropped off a big box of stuff at a
local computer shop. One person's junk is another's treasure.

 

[Bob I]

How safe are memory sticks for long term storage?

Depends on who you ask.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/331306.html

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Depends on who you ask.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/331306.html

That answer is dated 2004. Maybe we can contact the poster
(crabcakes-ga) and find out how his memory sticks are doing. We should
be able to get meaningful statistics in a seven year test

I tend to be suspicious of "accelerated tests". I wonder how accurate
the extrapolation from test conditions to real life can be. That's why
on some level my above remark isn't quite a joke.

OTOH, I wonder if today's flash memory cards and flash drives might be
more resilient. Seven years of R&D...

 

[Paul]

That answer is dated 2004. Maybe we can contact the poster
(crabcakes-ga) and find out how his memory sticks are doing. We should
be able to get meaningful statistics in a seven year test

I tend to be suspicious of "accelerated tests". I wonder how accurate
the extrapolation from test conditions to real life can be. That's why
on some level my above remark isn't quite a joke.

OTOH, I wonder if today's flash memory cards and flash drives might be
more resilient. Seven years of R&D...

Ten years is a more or less reasonable answer. There is a risk of "bit rot"
after enough time has passed.

KFW4G16Q2M - SLC - "Endurance : 100K Program/Erase Cycles Data Retention : 10 Years"

http://www.samsung.com/global/syste...Gbit/KFW4G16Q2M/ds_kfxxg16q2m_66mhz_rev12.pdf

For the following one, I got a copy from a datasheet site, as Samsung wants
an NDA for it. The download mechanism means it's difficult to give a direct
link to the datasheet (K9G8G08U0M__datasheet_co_kr.pdf)

K9G8G08U0M - MLC - Reliable CMOS Floating-Gate Technology
Endurance : 5K Program/Erase Cycles(with 4bit/512byte ECC)
Data Retention : 10 Years

So this is not in the same class as say, archival grade optical media with
a claimed life of 100 years. No attempt is made to over-promise this stuff.

Bit rot is occasionally seen, but the observation is on NOR flash, rather
than NAND. Since NAND is typically covered by ECC, you don't get to see
how many bits are really in error. Current NAND chips will ship with some
bits already bad inside, and the ECC hides it.

NAND is headed in the wrong direction, at least in the case of MLC. Whether
the manufacturers will insist on SLC doing the same thing, is another question.
In order to sell "enterprise grade solutions", SLC has to be demonstrably better.
Some MLC flash now, only has a 3K write cycle life - like hard drives, MLC
is being pushed for all it's worth, in the "density" direction, at the
expense of virtually any other parameter that get in the way. This means
cranking up the ECC code, to cover more bit errors, to make up the
difference.

But write cycle life wasn't the original question, and as far as data retention,
there seems to be no change in the boilerplate value. Naturally, they don't
actually wait ten years, to see if any bits change. This is determined by
"accelerated life testing", with the assumption that the modeling is understood
well enough, that the acceleration method is representative of real devices.

You can have flash memory, erased by ionizing radiation sources. So there are
mechanisms other than those planned in the datasheet, that could have an impact.

http://cmoset.com/uploads/Marta_Bagatin_2010.pdf

"Effects of ionizing radiation are becoming more and more severe on
Floating Gate cells. Only few hundred electrons separate adjacent program
levels. In advanced devices (< 65 nm) atmospheric neutrons can induce errors
(without ECC)"

Up to a certain level, ECC can hide bad bits or bits corrupted during storage
lifetime. But then, if you can't access the uncorrected state of the device,
then you don't know how bad it's getting. With a CD or DVD, you can do an
error scan, and "see" the rot happening over time. I don't know if that is
possible or practical with Flash memory devices or not.

Paul

 

[Ken Blake]

I recently did my annual cleaning of my computer junk box and tossed
out 5 80GB drives, 2 500GB's, 2 750's, and a 1TB. I figure they're
just too small to be of any real use and aren't worth wasting a SATA
port

1TB, and even 750GB and 500 GB, are "just too small to be of any real
use"? Yes, there are some bigger drives these days, but not a whole
lot bigger. Although I agree with you in principle, I certainly don't
agree with you in the details.

And even the 80GB drives, there are undoubtedly some people who could
use them, and would like to have them. At the very least, if you don't
want to try to sell them, give them away to those who want them.

 

[Ken Blake]

Not to go too far OT down memory lane, but my first IBM Compatible
computer was an 8088 at 4.77MHz with 640KB RAM and a whopping 30MB
hard drive running DOS 3.1. At the time, it was a top of the line PC,
made by Packard Bell.

The first computer I owned (I had worked with several others for many
years before--since 1961) was in 1987. It was custom-built and also
was 4.77 MHz and had a 20GB drive. We're not too far apart, but those
days are way behind us.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

1TB, and even 750GB and 500 GB, are "just too small to be of any real
use"? Yes, there are some bigger drives these days, but not a whole
lot bigger. Although I agree with you in principle, I certainly don't
agree with you in the details.

And even the 80GB drives, there are undoubtedly some people who could
use them, and would like to have them. At the very least, if you don't
want to try to sell them, give them away to those who want them.

From the part of Char's post you didn't quote:
"When I say tossed out, I mean I dropped off a big box of stuff at a
local computer shop. One person's junk is another's treasure."

But I agree about 1 TB to 500 GB being too small to be of use.

Maybe I need to start recording more video or something

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

But I agree about 1 TB to 500 GB being too small to be of use.

Meaning I agree with Ken...

 

[Char Jackson]

From the part of Char's post you didn't quote:
"When I say tossed out, I mean I dropped off a big box of stuff at a
local computer shop. One person's junk is another's treasure."

Thanks, yeah. I own a small PC shop (my second job; I also have a day
job) and tend to accumulate hardware from the various customer
upgrades. I don't use used hardware in subsequent upgrades, but a
local shop does (after giving proper notice to his customers) so I
periodically take a big plastic tote of stuff to him. He always thanks
me, so I guess he doesn't consider my junk to be junk. I figure it's a
way to keep stuff out of the landfill and give it a second chance.

We also have a Freecycle list here <http://www.freecycle.org/> and I
routinely offer certain things on there. Hopefully, the people who
express an interest in the things I give away are in some way needy,
but I have no control over that. Again, the idea is to keep things out
of the landfill.

But I agree <with Ken (edit)> about 1 TB to 500 GB being too small to be of use.

Maybe I need to start recording more video or something

What I meant was, a typical motherboard only has 4-8 SATA ports unless
you add a controller card. For my own systems, I can't see wasting a
precious (because they're so limited in number) port on a small drive.
My current minimum usable size is 2TB, and I tend to fill them
quickly. I don't have anything smaller installed at the moment in any
of my systems. I'm sure I'll look back at this moment a few years from
now and wonder what I was doing messing around with those tiny 2TB
drives, but that's how it goes.

 

[Dave \Crash\ Dummy]

The first computer I owned (I had worked with several others for many
years before--since 1961) was in 1987. It was custom-built and also
was 4.77 MHz and had a 20GB drive. We're not too far apart, but those
days are way behind us.

Wow. Do I feel old. My first personal computer came with a single 360
KB, 5 1/4" floppy. No hard drive. Hard drive support didn't arrive until
the XT.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, "Dave \"Crash\" Dummy"

Wow. Do I feel old. My first personal computer came with a single 360
KB, 5 1/4" floppy. No hard drive. Hard drive support didn't arrive until
the XT.

Well, my first "IBM-compatible" PC was quite advanced, having 4M of RAM
and a 40 or 80 (I can't remember) hard disc, with DOS and Windows 3.1;
however, that was when I could see the writing on the wall and left
(feeling guilty) the Acorn series of machines. (At that time, you got
more bang for your buck by jumping ship to PCs, by a big enough factor
that only die-hards stayed.)

But that's PCs, which _required_ more or less what Dave shows above to
claim to _be_ PCs. My first _computer_ - which I built from a kit, I
mean really built with a soldering iron, not just clicked together - had
1K of RAM (_including_ the video memory); 0.75 MHz IIRR (it was a
Tangerine, if anyone's interested). I remember upping that to a whole
8K, which seemed quite a lot at the time (I re-found the receipt for the
chips a few years ago: seventy-odd pounds I think! Mind you, that was
proper static RAM, none of your dynamic rubbish).

And the computer I first _learnt_ on had 16 (not 16K) memory locations -
an odd one by today's standards, being 7 bit _ones_ complement (today's
are twos) _serial_, about 100 kHz maximum. (Could also be run at about 1
Hz and about 10.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"We're Americans - with a capital `A'! And do you know what that means? Do you?
It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the
world." - Bill Murray

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Char Jackson

What I meant was, a typical motherboard only has 4-8 SATA ports unless
you add a controller card. For my own systems, I can't see wasting a
precious (because they're so limited in number) port on a small drive.
My current minimum usable size is 2TB, and I tend to fill them
quickly. I don't have anything smaller installed at the moment in any
of my systems. I'm sure I'll look back at this moment a few years from
now and wonder what I was doing messing around with those tiny 2TB
drives, but that's how it goes.

What do you fill them quickly _with_? Uncompressed HD video perhaps?

And when you _have_ filled them, what do you do with them: unplug them
and archive them?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"We're Americans - with a capital `A'! And do you know what that means? Do you?
It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the
world." - Bill Murray

 

[Rodney Pont]

But that's PCs, which _required_ more or less what Dave shows above to
claim to _be_ PCs. My first _computer_ - which I built from a kit, I
mean really built with a soldering iron, not just clicked together - had
1K of RAM (_including_ the video memory); 0.75 MHz IIRR (it was a
Tangerine, if anyone's interested).

I too built one of those. It used a 2MHz 6502 processor. I built a 16k
dynamic ram board, using a circuit from Byte I think. I'm sure you
remember GE2ED