Win 7 Update Problem?

[Harvey Gratt]

Just applied the latest updates to win 7 pro - everything seemed fine.
However, when attempting to do a system image to an external drive using
ShadowProtect, the imaging failed near the end - everything just stopped
responding. I rebooted and tried again with the same results at the same
place in the image creation process. The external G-Drive was connected
via an eSata docking connection.

I then tried the same thing with an old USB 2.0 Seagate drive with the
same results - everything stopped at what appeared to be the same place
in the imaging process. This would appear to rule out any external drive
issues.

So, any ideas as to what the issue may be? Possibly:

1. Bad motherboard?
2. Bad internal SSD (256 GB drive) - although everything appears to be
working?
3. Some bad Microsoft update behavior?

Thanks,
Harvey

 

[Ed Cryer]

Just applied the latest updates to win 7 pro - everything seemed fine.
However, when attempting to do a system image to an external drive using
ShadowProtect, the imaging failed near the end - everything just stopped
responding. I rebooted and tried again with the same results at the same
place in the image creation process. The external G-Drive was connected
via an eSata docking connection.

I then tried the same thing with an old USB 2.0 Seagate drive with the
same results - everything stopped at what appeared to be the same place
in the imaging process. This would appear to rule out any external drive
issues.

So, any ideas as to what the issue may be? Possibly:

1. Bad motherboard?
2. Bad internal SSD (256 GB drive) - although everything appears to be
working?
3. Some bad Microsoft update behavior?

Thanks,
Harvey

Everything points to the input files, ie the SSD.
How full is it?
Does it pass a disk check on the integrity of the indexes?

Ed

 

[Harvey Gratt]

Everything points to the input files, ie the SSD.
How full is it?
Does it pass a disk check on the integrity of the indexes?

Ed

115GB unused space. Did a disk check (including indexes) and it passed
without errors. Also did a partition check and surface check and it
passed. I'm still wondering if the recent updates hosed the
ShadowProtect installation.

I guess the next step is to try a different imaging program.

Thanks,
Harvey

 

[Paul]

115GB unused space. Did a disk check (including indexes) and it passed
without errors. Also did a partition check and surface check and it
passed. I'm still wondering if the recent updates hosed the
ShadowProtect installation.

I guess the next step is to try a different imaging program.

Thanks,
Harvey

The vssadmin program may be able to tell you something.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc785468.aspx

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/dd348398.aspx

Sorry for the lousy links.

Paul

 

[Robin Bignall]

Just applied the latest updates to win 7 pro - everything seemed fine.
However, when attempting to do a system image to an external drive using
ShadowProtect, the imaging failed near the end - everything just stopped
responding. I rebooted and tried again with the same results at the same
place in the image creation process. The external G-Drive was connected
via an eSata docking connection.

I then tried the same thing with an old USB 2.0 Seagate drive with the
same results - everything stopped at what appeared to be the same place
in the imaging process. This would appear to rule out any external drive
issues.

So, any ideas as to what the issue may be? Possibly:

1. Bad motherboard?
2. Bad internal SSD (256 GB drive) - although everything appears to be
working?
3. Some bad Microsoft update behavior?

I've used ShadowProtect for years and am currently running my weekly C:
and D: backup to H:, an external USB drive. Win7Ult with all latest
updates. If it fails I'll respond here, but so far, so good.

 

[Bob Horvath]

Everything points to the input files, ie the SSD.
How full is it?
Does it pass a disk check on the integrity of the indexes?

Ed

If you suspect the updates, maybe you could uninstall the updates and
see if it makes a difference. Just a thought

 

[Paul]

If you suspect the updates, maybe you could uninstall the updates and
see if it makes a difference. Just a thought

When the updates installed, the system probably set a Restore Point,
which uses a tiny bit of storage space. And even that might be
behind the problem.

Since I don't understand how storage space versus VSS works, I
can't advise what command to use to check out the storage situation.

Also, there is an obscure problem that arises if a user
foolishly assigned a drive letter to SYSTEM RESERVED.
You're not supposed to do that. Reason being, it causes
System Restore to start running on that partition. (Without
a drive letter assigned, System Restore is "blind" to the partition.)
The partition is only 100MB, and can easily be filled (in
the blink of an eye) by System Restore and its restore points.
I don't know if there is a warning printed anywhere about
that or not. But a user might be tempted to assign a letter
to SYSTEM RESERVED, when it's not supposed to have one.

Paul

 

[Ken Springer]

Just applied the latest updates to win 7 pro - everything seemed fine.
However, when attempting to do a system image to an external drive using
ShadowProtect, the imaging failed near the end - everything just stopped
responding. I rebooted and tried again with the same results at the same
place in the image creation process. The external G-Drive was connected
via an eSata docking connection.

I then tried the same thing with an old USB 2.0 Seagate drive with the
same results - everything stopped at what appeared to be the same place
in the imaging process. This would appear to rule out any external drive
issues.

So, any ideas as to what the issue may be? Possibly:

1. Bad motherboard?
2. Bad internal SSD (256 GB drive) - although everything appears to be
working?
3. Some bad Microsoft update behavior?

Hi, Harvey,

Based on your post, I'm going to make a couple of guesses. If either
one is wrong, ignore what I've written afterward, unless you're curious.

1. You're using Windows 7 Backup and Restore
2. Your external drive is 3 TB.

If the above is accurate, from what I've gleaned from forum posts with
no answers to web searches, Windows 7 Backup is probably your culprit.
There's a bug that doesn't like the newer Advanced Format Drives.
Meaning 4096 sector sizes instead of 512.

I tried formatting with every sector size Win 7 would allow me, all failed.

I have the same issue. So does my brother-in-law. Apparently MS has no
intention of fixing it in Win 7, but was going to fix it in Win 8. I
don't know if they did.

There are threads about this in both Seagate and Western Digital forums.
In both places, posters have said the HD maker gave them a fix, but
did they post the fix when asked? Nope. With my cynical nature, I
wouldn't be surprised if the mfgr. pulled any posts that offered a
solution that worked.

One web solution I read said to format the drive as Ex-FAT, but that
didn't work for me.

I finally gave up, attached a 2 TB drive, no problem.

Good luck.
--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

 

[Harvey Gratt]

Just applied the latest updates to win 7 pro - everything seemed fine.
However, when attempting to do a system image to an external drive using
ShadowProtect, the imaging failed near the end - everything just stopped
responding. I rebooted and tried again with the same results at the same
place in the image creation process. The external G-Drive was connected
via an eSata docking connection.

I then tried the same thing with an old USB 2.0 Seagate drive with the
same results - everything stopped at what appeared to be the same place
in the imaging process. This would appear to rule out any external drive
issues.

So, any ideas as to what the issue may be? Possibly:

1. Bad motherboard?
2. Bad internal SSD (256 GB drive) - although everything appears to be
working?
3. Some bad Microsoft update behavior?

Thanks,
Harvey

First, Thanks for all the responses. I've now tried several things with
the following results:

1. External drives are 1TB (one is eSata, the other USB 2).
ShadowProtect failed with both drives around the same place.

2. The internal SSD did pass the windows chkdsk test. I also did a
surface test on the drive using the Easeus partition manager. Although
it said it passed at the end, it did flag one bad sector while running.

3. My primary imaging software is ShadowProtect. I then downloaded the
free version of Macrium Reflect and attempted to make an image. It also
failed near the end. However, it did throw an error message along the
lines of:

"unable to read from disk, error code 121, semaphore timeout period
has expired"

4. I did a system restore to a point prior to the last windows update
(verified since I got the update message again). Tried again with
ShadowProtect and it again failed the same way.

So, based on all this, I do not believe it is a windows update issue but
rather an SSD problem or possibly a corrupted windows installation. I'm
leaning towards the SSD being the problem (I figure if it were a RAM
problem, failures would be commonplace and not limited to the imaging
programs). I will be calling Dell tomorrow.

Thanks,
Harvey

 

[Paul]

First, Thanks for all the responses. I've now tried several things with
the following results:

1. External drives are 1TB (one is eSata, the other USB 2).
ShadowProtect failed with both drives around the same place.

2. The internal SSD did pass the windows chkdsk test. I also did a
surface test on the drive using the Easeus partition manager. Although
it said it passed at the end, it did flag one bad sector while running.

3. My primary imaging software is ShadowProtect. I then downloaded the
free version of Macrium Reflect and attempted to make an image. It also
failed near the end. However, it did throw an error message along the
lines of:

"unable to read from disk, error code 121, semaphore timeout period has
expired"

Someone here did CHKDSK /r for that and fixed it. The post at the bottom...

http://support.macrium.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2243

4. I did a system restore to a point prior to the last windows update
(verified since I got the update message again). Tried again with
ShadowProtect and it again failed the same way.

So, based on all this, I do not believe it is a windows update issue but
rather an SSD problem or possibly a corrupted windows installation. I'm
leaning towards the SSD being the problem (I figure if it were a RAM
problem, failures would be commonplace and not limited to the imaging
programs). I will be calling Dell tomorrow.

Thanks,
Harvey

You might want to Google the make and model number of
SSD, and see if it's a "drop dead" model. SSDs have a
pretty spotty history when it comes to quality of
firmware.

Paul

 

[Harvey Gratt]

Someone here did CHKDSK /r for that and fixed it. The post at the bottom...

http://support.macrium.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2243


You might want to Google the make and model number of
SSD, and see if it's a "drop dead" model. SSDs have a
pretty spotty history when it comes to quality of
firmware.

Paul

Yeah, I tried the chkdsk ( with repair) and it did not solve the
problem. Just got off the phone with DELL and after giving him all the
details, the tech felt that it was a bad sector(s) on the SSD. They are
sending me a new one (under warranty with win7 pro 64 bit) which I
should get by Monday. I will probably image it (to make sure that works)
and then attempt to restore my last good image.

Thanks,
Harvey

 

[Paul]

Yeah, I tried the chkdsk ( with repair) and it did not solve the
problem. Just got off the phone with DELL and after giving him all the
details, the tech felt that it was a bad sector(s) on the SSD. They are
sending me a new one (under warranty with win7 pro 64 bit) which I
should get by Monday. I will probably image it (to make sure that works)
and then attempt to restore my last good image.

Thanks,
Harvey

There are a number of utilities that will do a bad block scan
(i.e. check for CRC errors on each sector). I use HDTune and
the "Error scan" tab.

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

The free version does read-only testing, and should
be safe no matter what you do with it.

The SMART parameters an SSD has, are a bit different
than for a hard drive. And you may need some other
utility to make sense of them. It's possible you
might get a hint from the SMART.

Page 5 here gives some examples. On a hard drive,
the Reallocated Sectors is a good indicator. There
is also a Rated Life parameter, but that has the
odd quirk depending on the drive.

http://www.micron.com/~/media/Docum...torage/tn_fd_05_p400e_SMART_firmware_0135.pdf

I don't know if that old version of HDTune, knows
about the new parameters. The current (pay) version
is likely up to date.

Paul

 

[Harvey Gratt]

Tried the scan function on HDTune. It showed a bad location on one
detailed scan. It then failed by locking up similar to the imaging
program. This happened twice - it sure looks like an issue with the SSD.
I guess I'll find out next week when the new one arrives.

Thanks,
Harvey

 

[Paul]

Tried the scan function on HDTune. It showed a bad location on one
detailed scan. It then failed by locking up similar to the imaging
program. This happened twice - it sure looks like an issue with the SSD.
I guess I'll find out next week when the new one arrives.

Thanks,
Harvey

This should make doing a backup interesting.

Do you have a plan for getting the data off it ?

It's one thing for a drive to throw errors, and you
simply step around the bad spot. I don't have a
recipe for "locks up". That would be nasty to deal with.

If you knew where the bad sector fell (in terms of the
file system), you could look into marking the area
($badclus). I don't know exactly how you'd do that,
without using CHKDSK. The idea would be to mark the
area as being unusable, and delete the file sitting
in that area, so that backup attempts would not attempt
to access the sectors there (and freeze).

http://whereismydata.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/forensics-what-is-the/

Paul

 

[Harvey Gratt]

This should make doing a backup interesting.

Do you have a plan for getting the data off it ?

It's one thing for a drive to throw errors, and you
simply step around the bad spot. I don't have a
recipe for "locks up". That would be nasty to deal with.

If you knew where the bad sector fell (in terms of the
file system), you could look into marking the area
($badclus). I don't know exactly how you'd do that,
without using CHKDSK. The idea would be to mark the
area as being unusable, and delete the file sitting
in that area, so that backup attempts would not attempt
to access the sectors there (and freeze).

http://whereismydata.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/forensics-what-is-the/

Paul

I have separately backed up the My Documents folder along with other
"Folders of Interest". These were backed up to the external drive as
regular folders and files. As far as I can tell, I have all my data
backed up independent of the image files.

The real pain will come if the image restore fails and I have to
reinstall all my programs, windows updates, etc. DELL is apparently
only suppling the OS, not any of the original purchased stuff (have to
obtain those separately by showing "proof" or installing from CD's).

Harvey

 

[Robin Bignall]

I have separately backed up the My Documents folder along with other
"Folders of Interest". These were backed up to the external drive as
regular folders and files. As far as I can tell, I have all my data
backed up independent of the image files.

The real pain will come if the image restore fails and I have to
reinstall all my programs, windows updates, etc. DELL is apparently
only suppling the OS, not any of the original purchased stuff (have to
obtain those separately by showing "proof" or installing from CD's).

I've used the stand-alone ShadowProtect environment to restore images of
C: to all sorts of disks and an SSD in my time. If the new SSD is
fault-free, your original C: image should restore without problems. If
you have a spare HDD around that's the same size or bigger than the
image, you could try a restore to that as a test. Since HDDs are cheap
it might almost be worthwhile to buy one and keep it around.

 

[Harvey Gratt]

I've used the stand-alone ShadowProtect environment to restore images of
C: to all sorts of disks and an SSD in my time. If the new SSD is
fault-free, your original C: image should restore without problems. If
you have a spare HDD around that's the same size or bigger than the
image, you could try a restore to that as a test. Since HDDs are cheap
it might almost be worthwhile to buy one and keep it around.

That's good idea. BTW, the new SSD should also have the recovery
partition and the "alignment" partition. So I'm only planning on
restoring the imaged C: partition to the new SSD (not the whole drive
image). Hopefully there will be no issues.

Thanks,
Harvey

 

[Robin Bignall]

That's good idea. BTW, the new SSD should also have the recovery
partition and the "alignment" partition. So I'm only planning on
restoring the imaged C: partition to the new SSD (not the whole drive
image). Hopefully there will be no issues.

I hope it goes well.

 

[charlie]

Yeah, I tried the chkdsk ( with repair) and it did not solve the
problem. Just got off the phone with DELL and after giving him all the
details, the tech felt that it was a bad sector(s) on the SSD. They are
sending me a new one (under warranty with win7 pro 64 bit) which I
should get by Monday. I will probably image it (to make sure that works)
and then attempt to restore my last good image.

Thanks,
Harvey

That sound similar to a conversion to SSD related Issue that I had with
win 7.
In my case, it turned out that the existing HD did not have enough free
space to properly support either the software supplied with the SSD, or
the built in windows backup software, as well as several different
popular "freeware" utilities. I ended up using a Paragon $9.95 utility.
Further, Using an extra normally unused SATA port for the process was
more successful than using USB I/O with an appropriate USB to SATA HD
adapter.

 

[Harvey Gratt]

I hope it goes well.

O.K., this was an interesting exercise:

1. The new SSD was a newer model and thinner than the original. It came
with a a rubber foam "gasket" that was joined to the SSD with adhesive.
My first guess was that this was to get the correct thickness for the
unit. In fact, it went in O.K, but you really couldn't get the 4
retaining screws to penetrate the material to secure the drive to the
chassis. So, with DELL's approval, I removed the gasket and tried to
install the drive. Had to turn over the laptop to let "gravity" align
the connectors ( per DELL advice). It then inserted.

2. Tried the restore from the ShadowProtect Recovery Environment and
found that the new drive was partition slightly different - the C;
partition on the new SSD was about 1GB too small (there was a bigger
Recovery partition) thus ShadowProtect couldn't do the restore. Had to
quit ShadowProtect and boot up the new drive so I could run a partition
manager to resize the partitions.

3. Reran the ShadowProtect Recovery Environment and was able to
successfully restore the C: partition with my image.

4. Booted back up to windows and reinstalled the past months updates, etc.

5. Made a new image successfully in a significantly shorter time. Also
ran the HDTune function with no problems. So I guess the old SSD was bad.

What is interesting is that I don't ever recall a conventional HDD going
bad. This was my second SSD and it went bad despite the hype about
better reliability. Also, the new drive appears to be faster and I have
5 or 6 GB more space on my C: partition - maybe the old drive was eating
up space because of the defects.

Anyway, so far, so good and quite a learning experience.

Thanks,
Harvey