OT: Retro radios

[Ed Cryer]

I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them".
And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much more
wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was hearing was
vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value.
I have several DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial,
switching from one to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds
best; even though it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the
sound "richer".

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

This is my Yachtboy;
http://tinyurl.com/btukqqv

Cool!
Ed

 

[John Williamson]

I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them".
And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much more
wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was hearing was
vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value.
I have several DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial,
switching from one to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds
best; even though it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the
sound "richer".

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

This is my Yachtboy;
http://tinyurl.com/btukqqv

The sound of the Yachtboy and other premium portable radios of the day
has a lot to do with a restricted frequency response and a relatively
large speaker and cabinet. The small, cheap ones sounded even worse than
the current crop.

FM is also transmitted without digital compression at transmission time,
so you won't hear the artifacts of the compression scheme and low bit
rates used by most DAB stations. The link from the studio to the
transmitter will probably be over a reasonably high bandwidth digital
link, though.

If you have a lurk in uk.tech.broadcast then you'll find out a lot more
about why DAB sounds so bad.

 

[ASCII]

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

You said it, we've lost the hiss and
warmth (distortion) of analog.
I'm old enough to remember it well
but don't miss it a bit.

This is my Yachtboy;
http://tinyurl.com/btukqqv

This is my eTón;
http://bitly.com/Sq796Y
From 2005,
it's getting sorta retro
even if still unequaled

 

[mechanic]

The sound of the Yachtboy and other premium portable radios of the
day has a lot to do with a restricted frequency response and a
relatively large speaker and cabinet.

They were well made and didn't rattle like plastic bodied junk that
sells these days. They were well matched to the broadcast standards
of the day so sounded great. Alas too expensive to sell in numbers
these days.

 

[Dave \Crash\ Dummy]

I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them". And then, coincidentally, my
barber was telling me about his vinyl collection (he's not out of his
30s) and he said they have "a much more wholesome sound to them". I
argued; I told him what he was hearing was vintageness, and that was
affecting his perception.

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value. I have several
DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial, switching from one
to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds best; even though
it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the sound "richer".

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

Ultimately, we are incapable of listening to digital electronic signals.
They must first be converted to analog vibrations that can be sensed by
the human ear. Sounds can be most faithfully stored and transmitted
using digital encryption, but the stuff we hear still relies on analog
amplifiers and electrical to mechanical transducers (aka speakers). That
is usually the weak link in any sound system. I listen to high quality
digital recordings all the time, but when I play them on my computer
with the tiny little narrow range speakers they may as well be
transmitted on AM radio.

 

[Fokke Nauta]

They were well made and didn't rattle like plastic bodied junk that
sells these days. They were well matched to the broadcast standards
of the day so sounded great. Alas too expensive to sell in numbers
these days.

Fully agree.

Stupid question: What's DAB by the way?

Fokke

 

[Fokke Nauta]

Ultimately, we are incapable of listening to digital electronic signals.
They must first be converted to analog vibrations that can be sensed by
the human ear. Sounds can be most faithfully stored and transmitted
using digital encryption, but the stuff we hear still relies on analog
amplifiers and electrical to mechanical transducers (aka speakers). That
is usually the weak link in any sound system. I listen to high quality
digital recordings all the time, but when I play them on my computer
with the tiny little narrow range speakers they may as well be
transmitted on AM radio.

Nowadays digitally recorded music sounds better then the old tape or
vinyl recordings. Tape and vinyl recordings have their own reduction on
the frequency spectrum, and that's where we all get used to. It adds a
sort of "softness" to the sound. The digital idiome produces a better
spectrum, and it sounds clearer. You will also need better speakers.
Current PC speaker systems are far of wonderfull. I got a good soundcart
in my PC and I have connected the output to my stereo system. It sounds
great. Short cable, though.

Talking about Grundig, they had good products. I used to have a Grundig
tape recorder years ago.

Fokke

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them".

If in the UK, that's partly because the powers that be have decided to
pack too many stations into the available bitstream, with the result
that they are poor quality; digital encoding of sound is capable of
excellent fidelity (early CDs had it), but it is also capable of pretty
grotty quality. [In addition, the encoding used for digital radio in the
UK - mp2 - is less efficient than that common nowadays on computers,
such as mp3 or aac, so needs more bits. Nevertheless, the available
bandwidth/bitrate was capable of very high quality in the early days of
digital radio, because they gave enough bits to each channel.]

And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much more
wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was hearing was
vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

He's used to the distortions imposed by the cartridge - and also may
have the system connected to a better amp. and speakers than his CD
player. (Also, the amount of [amplitude] compression - which in itself
isn't anything to do with whether digital or analogue, though of course
digital processing makes it easier - has increased steadily over the
years, so vinyl recordings of the same album are often less compressed.)

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value.
I have several DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial,
switching from one to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds
best; even though it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the
sound "richer".

Doesn't rattle, good speaker, and see above re DAB bitrate limitation.

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

I don't need electronic meters to hear a reduction in noise and hiss.
(Though the distortions of low bit rate digital encoding are often more
disagreeable to my ears than a certain amount of tape/fm hiss.)
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Hofstadter's Law:
It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take Hofstadter's Law into
account.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Fully agree. Ditto.

Stupid question: What's DAB by the way?

Fokke

Digital Audio Broadcasting - what the UK powers that be call the mp2
broadcasting used in the UK (and, I think, most of the rest of western
Europe, though [a] they don't call it that, they don't cram in so
many stations, so it is genuinely good quality, [c] some countries are
also I think broadcasting using better [more efficient] digital audio,
such as AAC).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Hofstadter's Law:
It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take Hofstadter's Law
into
account.

 

[Ed Cryer]

They were well made and didn't rattle like plastic bodied junk that
sells these days. They were well matched to the broadcast standards
of the day so sounded great. Alas too expensive to sell in numbers
these days.

One of the DAB radios I have and compared it with is this Pure Contour;
http://www.pure.com/products/product.asp?Product=VL-61385
and that used to sound pretty good before I went back to the Yachtboy.

Ed

 

[Robin Bignall]

Fully agree. Ditto.

Stupid question: What's DAB by the way?

Fokke

Digital Audio Broadcasting - what the UK powers that be call the mp2
broadcasting used in the UK (and, I think, most of the rest of western
Europe, though [a] they don't call it that, they don't cram in so
many stations, so it is genuinely good quality, [c] some countries are
also I think broadcasting using better [more efficient] digital audio,
such as AAC).

I bought a DAB radio (not cheap) to use in the kitchen. FM reception
has always been dodgy even adjacent to the window. One of the
characteristics of stations that can be displayed is signal strength.
BBC Radio 4 and LBC 97.3 have exactly the same strength but the latter
is so distorted it's impossible to listen to it.

 

[jbm]

The sound of the Yachtboy and other premium portable radios of the day
has a lot to do with a restricted frequency response and a relatively
large speaker and cabinet. The small, cheap ones sounded even worse than
the current crop.

FM is also transmitted without digital compression at transmission time,
so you won't hear the artifacts of the compression scheme and low bit
rates used by most DAB stations. The link from the studio to the
transmitter will probably be over a reasonably high bandwidth digital
link, though.

If you have a lurk in uk.tech.broadcast then you'll find out a lot more
about why DAB sounds so bad.

Most of the BBC output is now digital at source, since they put the
majority of their music library onto hard disc. Radio 1, Radio 2 non
specialised, and all the local stations now play their music off that
digitised HD source. At least on FM you get only one level of
compression. Listening on DAB you get at least two levels. Compare to
re-saving a JPG image as a new JPG image. Horrible.

jim

 

[Doug Chadduck]

I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them".

If in the UK, that's partly because the powers that be have decided to
pack too many stations into the available bitstream, with the result
that they are poor quality; digital encoding of sound is capable of
excellent fidelity (early CDs had it), but it is also capable of pretty
grotty quality. [In addition, the encoding used for digital radio in the
UK - mp2 - is less efficient than that common nowadays on computers,
such as mp3 or aac, so needs more bits. Nevertheless, the available
bandwidth/bitrate was capable of very high quality in the early days of
digital radio, because they gave enough bits to each channel.]

And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much
more wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was
hearing was vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

He's used to the distortions imposed by the cartridge - and also may
have the system connected to a better amp. and speakers than his CD
player. (Also, the amount of [amplitude] compression - which in itself
isn't anything to do with whether digital or analogue, though of course
digital processing makes it easier - has increased steadily over the
years, so vinyl recordings of the same album are often less compressed.)

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value.
I have several DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial,
switching from one to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds
best; even though it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the
sound "richer".

Doesn't rattle, good speaker, and see above re DAB bitrate limitation.

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

I don't need electronic meters to hear a reduction in noise and hiss.
(Though the distortions of low bit rate digital encoding are often more
disagreeable to my ears than a certain amount of tape/fm hiss.)
[]

Staying way OT

Digital = Sterilized Sound, crisp, clean, technical, free of
distortion etc.

When have your ever heard sterilized music live?
I never have.

Analog/Vinyl etc = Real Sound, subject to the environment it's played
in, open to the feel of the moment and the mood and make-up of the
players and audience etc.

My two cents worth.
But I'm well past 60 and my ears aren't what they used to be.
But I'd still rather pull out my old vinyl.

 

[Doug Chadduck]

Nowadays digitally recorded music sounds better then the old tape or
vinyl recordings. Tape and vinyl recordings have their own reduction on
the frequency spectrum, and that's where we all get used to. It adds a
sort of "softness" to the sound. The digital idiome produces a better
spectrum, and it sounds clearer. You will also need better speakers.
Current PC speaker systems are far of wonderfull. I got a good soundcart
in my PC and I have connected the output to my stereo system. It sounds
great. Short cable, though.

Talking about Grundig, they had good products. I used to have a Grundig
tape recorder years ago.

Fokke

Staying way OT

Digital = Sterilized Sound, crisp, clean, technical, free of
distortion etc.

When have your ever heard sterilized music live?
I never have.

Analog/Vinyl etc = Real Sound, subject to the environment it's played
in, open to the feel of the moment and the mood and make-up of the
players and audience etc.

My two cents worth.
But I'm well past 60 and my ears aren't what they used to be.
But I'd still rather pull out my old vinyl.

 

[John Williamson]

Digital = Sterilized Sound, crisp, clean, technical, free of
distortion etc.

When have your ever heard sterilized music live?
I never have.

Crisp, clean sound exactly matching the performer's intentions can be
heard live at any venue with live music. Some exceptions are when sound
reinforcement is used. Then, you get distorted sound in the venue, and
for some pop concerts, the distortion is in my ears due to the excessive
volume used. Acoustic gigs and classical concerts are perfect examples
of clean sound.

Analog/Vinyl etc = Real Sound, subject to the environment it's played
in, open to the feel of the moment and the mood and make-up of the
players and audience etc.

Analogue/ vinyl = The distortions that you are used to. Generally,, due
to the nature of the reproduction, these distortions are harmonically
related to the real sound in a pleasant way.

I was glad to get rid of tape noise and turntable rumble.

My two cents worth.
But I'm well past 60 and my ears aren't what they used to be.
But I'd still rather pull out my old vinyl.

My 2 penn'orth. I prefer digital. Then again, I'm only a youth of 57.

 

[Ed Cryer]

Most of the BBC output is now digital at source, since they put the
majority of their music library onto hard disc. Radio 1, Radio 2 non
specialised, and all the local stations now play their music off that
digitised HD source. At least on FM you get only one level of
compression. Listening on DAB you get at least two levels. Compare to
re-saving a JPG image as a new JPG image. Horrible.

jim

All my three DAB radios have FM as well. I might switch them permanently.

Ed

 

[Tim Slattery]

Digital Audio Broadcasting - what the UK powers that be call the mp2
broadcasting used in the UK (and, I think, most of the rest of western
Europe, though [a] they don't call it that, they don't cram in so
many stations, so it is genuinely good quality, [c] some countries are
also I think broadcasting using better [more efficient] digital audio,
such as AAC).

Would that be what's called HD (Hybrid Digital) radio in the US? Never
seen a set that would receive it (haven't really searched, though).

 

[DanS]

I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them".

If in the UK, that's partly because the powers that be have decided to
pack too many stations into the available bitstream, with the result
that they are poor quality; digital encoding of sound is capable of
excellent fidelity (early CDs had it), but it is also capable of pretty
grotty quality. [In addition, the encoding used for digital radio in
the UK - mp2 - is less efficient than that common nowadays on
computers, such as mp3 or aac, so needs more bits. Nevertheless, the
available bandwidth/bitrate was capable of very high quality in the
early days of digital radio, because they gave enough bits to each
channel.]

And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much
more wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was
hearing was vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

He's used to the distortions imposed by the cartridge - and also may
have the system connected to a better amp. and speakers than his CD
player. (Also, the amount of [amplitude] compression - which in itself
isn't anything to do with whether digital or analogue, though of course
digital processing makes it easier - has increased steadily over the
years, so vinyl recordings of the same album are often less
compressed.)

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value.
I have several DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial,
switching from one to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds
best; even though it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the
sound "richer".

Doesn't rattle, good speaker, and see above re DAB bitrate limitation.

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

I don't need electronic meters to hear a reduction in noise and hiss.
(Though the distortions of low bit rate digital encoding are often more
disagreeable to my ears than a certain amount of tape/fm hiss.)
[]

Staying way OT

Digital = Sterilized Sound, crisp, clean, technical, free of
distortion etc.

When have your ever heard sterilized music live?
I never have.

Have you ever heard a symphony of non-electric instruments live?

I would call those sounds crisp and clean, technical and free of
distortion.

 

[choro]

In message <[email protected]>, Ed Cryer
I heard somebody say recently that digital radios weren't selling too
well because "people don't like them".

If in the UK, that's partly because the powers that be have decided to
pack too many stations into the available bitstream, with the result
that they are poor quality; digital encoding of sound is capable of
excellent fidelity (early CDs had it), but it is also capable of pretty
grotty quality. [In addition, the encoding used for digital radio in
the UK - mp2 - is less efficient than that common nowadays on
computers, such as mp3 or aac, so needs more bits. Nevertheless, the
available bandwidth/bitrate was capable of very high quality in the
early days of digital radio, because they gave enough bits to each
channel.]

And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much
more wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was
hearing was vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

He's used to the distortions imposed by the cartridge - and also may
have the system connected to a better amp. and speakers than his CD
player. (Also, the amount of [amplitude] compression - which in itself
isn't anything to do with whether digital or analogue, though of course
digital processing makes it easier - has increased steadily over the
years, so vinyl recordings of the same album are often less
compressed.)

Anyway, I have an old Grundig Yachtboy from the 70s. I've kept it
because I like the style of it; and sentimental value.
I have several DAB radios, so I tried them all out for a trial,
switching from one to the other. And I swear that the Yachtboy sounds
best; even though it's got only one speaker and is FM. I'd call the
sound "richer".

Doesn't rattle, good speaker, and see above re DAB bitrate limitation.

We've all become so attuned to the clear tones of digital hi-fi,
measuring noise and hiss reduction with electronic meters rather than
our ears, that we've lost something.

I don't need electronic meters to hear a reduction in noise and hiss.
(Though the distortions of low bit rate digital encoding are often more
disagreeable to my ears than a certain amount of tape/fm hiss.)
[]

Staying way OT

Digital = Sterilized Sound, crisp, clean, technical, free of
distortion etc.

When have your ever heard sterilized music live?
I never have.

Have you ever heard a symphony of non-electric instruments live?

I would call those sounds crisp and clean, technical and free of
distortion.

No, he's only heard music and sounds on average speakers at best and
listened to live music through speakers in a large hall. That's how come
he is an expert on audiophile sound reproduction. )-: :-(

 

[NY]

And then, coincidentally, my barber was telling me about his vinyl
collection (he's not out of his 30s) and he said they have "a much
more wholesome sound to them". I argued; I told him what he was
hearing was vintageness, and that was affecting his perception.

He's used to the distortions imposed by the cartridge - and also may
have the system connected to a better amp. and speakers than his CD
player. (Also, the amount of [amplitude] compression - which in itself
isn't anything to do with whether digital or analogue, though of course
digital processing makes it easier - has increased steadily over the
years, so vinyl recordings of the same album are often less
compressed.)

I'd be interested to know whether people who say they prefer LPs can
distinguish between live reproduction of (for example) an orchestra
(microphones, amplifier, loudspeakers) and good CD-type digital recording
(ie identical performers, microphones, amplifiers, speakers, but with an
additional analogue-to-digital and digital-to-analogue stage to simulate the
recording to CD.

In other words, is it the fact that the sound has been converted to digital
and back that they hate or is it the fact that it's *not* been through the
various compression, equalisation and band-limiting stages necessary to put
the sound onto LP and then play it again?

Obviously doing a true double-blind test live/CD/LP would be difficult
because it is immediately possible to detect an LP by its hiss, crackle and
dust clicks.