Long term storage

[Antares 531]

What is the best choice for long term storage of computer data files?
I am running Windows 7 - 64, and have a lot of accounting, tax
records, genealogy, pictures, etc., files that I would like to make
back-ups onto some media that I could expect to be able to read on a
new computer, 10 or more years in the future. Is there any storage
media similar to the old style CDs that might be reliable for very
long time spans?

Gordon

 

[Seth]

What is the best choice for long term storage of computer data files?
I am running Windows 7 - 64, and have a lot of accounting, tax
records, genealogy, pictures, etc., files that I would like to make
back-ups onto some media that I could expect to be able to read on a
new computer, 10 or more years in the future. Is there any storage
media similar to the old style CDs that might be reliable for very
long time spans?

I have 2 laptop hard drives and 1 SATA/USB dock. I back up stuff to the
hard drive and the next time my wife is in the vicinity of the bank where we
have a deposit box, she swaps drives.

 

[Antares 531]

I have 2 laptop hard drives and 1 SATA/USB dock. I back up stuff to the
hard drive and the next time my wife is in the vicinity of the bank where we
have a deposit box, she swaps drives.

This should work very well for short term storage. U use some USB
Flash drives/Thumb drives, but I am very apprehensive about long term
storage. Will my descendants be able to look at the genealogy files
and photos that I have stored on these USB drives? I would like to
find a storage medium that would let me put all these files onto it
and feel sure that this storage medium could be read and the files
opened some time far into the future. Is there any way to do this?

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

This should work very well for short term storage. U use some USB
Flash drives/Thumb drives, but I am very apprehensive about long term
storage. Will my descendants be able to look at the genealogy files
and photos that I have stored on these USB drives? I would like to
find a storage medium that would let me put all these files onto it
and feel sure that this storage medium could be read and the files
opened some time far into the future. Is there any way to do this?

In the video groups (and probably others that I'm unaware of), people
suggest several things:

1. Writeable optical media are not long-term storage - they are subject to
degeneration.

2. Any media are subject to obsolescence (8-track tapes, anyone?)

3. With media that might fade, it is suggested to recopy them from time to
time. E.g., copy all of your DVDs to new ones every few years.

4. When media are going obsolete, copy them to the latest media. For
instance, copy all of your floppies or old mag-tape backups to hard drives
while you still have a working way to read them. Other examples are MFM
hard drives to IDE, IDE to SATA, and SATA to holographic (just kidding on
that one).

 

[johnbee]

What is the best choice for long term storage of computer data files?
I am running Windows 7 - 64, and have a lot of accounting, tax
records, genealogy, pictures, etc., files that I would like to make
back-ups onto some media that I could expect to be able to read on a
new computer, 10 or more years in the future. Is there any storage
media similar to the old style CDs that might be reliable for very
long time spans?

Gordon

PC stuff fairly rapidly becomes obsolete. DVDs and blurays are fine at the
moment, but untested as far as keeping for 20 years goes. As suggested by
someone else, copy them every three years or so. If you are serious, choose
a company which you think will not go bust, or will be taken over if it goes
dodgy, and pay them to store it, accessible from the Web. Your ISP might be
fine - if you are on on BT broadband, their service (free up to 5 gig and
a fiver for more) might be OK because they might not go bust and are likely
to keep the service going. Also. there is plenty on Wikipedia about the
subject.

I will tell you something extra for free that you might not get from
elsewhere. Don't rely on one method. Flash drives are great at the moment,
and while they will eventually wear out or become obsolete, are extremely
useful for this sort of thing, although not dirt cheap. I read somewhere
that there are cheap crap sticks which pretend to have a huge capacity but
don't, so beware. Also, I think there are two types, one much longer
lasting than the other, so that might need investigating. Anyway, use them
as another method - it should be a doddle to copy them to whatever succeeds
them.

 

[Ken Blake]

In the video groups (and probably others that I'm unaware of), people
suggest several things:

1. Writeable optical media are not long-term storage - they are subject to
degeneration.

2. Any media are subject to obsolescence (8-track tapes, anyone?)

3. With media that might fade, it is suggested to recopy them from time to
time. E.g., copy all of your DVDs to new ones every few years.

4. When media are going obsolete, copy them to the latest media. For
instance, copy all of your floppies or old mag-tape backups to hard drives
while you still have a working way to read them. Other examples are MFM
hard drives to IDE, IDE to SATA, and SATA to holographic (just kidding on
that one).

Those are all good points that I agree with, but I'd add to add a
fifth one (or a modification to number 4).

Even for media not going obsolete, the magnetization doesn't last
forever. So point 4 should also say (or add point 5) that all magnetic
media is subject to fading and should be recopied periodically.

So put that together with points 1 and 3, and essentially all media
should be copied periodically.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Those are all good points that I agree with, but I'd add to add a
fifth one (or a modification to number 4).

Even for media not going obsolete, the magnetization doesn't last
forever. So point 4 should also say (or add point 5) that all magnetic
media is subject to fading and should be recopied periodically.

So put that together with points 1 and 3, and essentially all media
should be copied periodically.

Good point, thanks.

 

[Antares 531]

Those are all good points that I agree with, but I'd add to add a
fifth one (or a modification to number 4).

Even for media not going obsolete, the magnetization doesn't last
forever. So point 4 should also say (or add point 5) that all magnetic
media is subject to fading and should be recopied periodically.

So put that together with points 1 and 3, and essentially all media
should be copied periodically.

Thanks, Ken, and the others who responded to this post. I guess there
is no way to put things like old family pictures away for future
generations to look at, like they did with those old paper photos in
the days gone by. I wonder why some innovative person or company
hasn't developed some means for such long term digital storage, along
with a reader/interface that could easily be connected to any future
computers. Seems possible???

Gordon

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Thanks, Ken, and the others who responded to this post. I guess there
is no way to put things like old family pictures away for future
generations to look at, like they did with those old paper photos in
the days gone by. I wonder why some innovative person or company
hasn't developed some means for such long term digital storage, along
with a reader/interface that could easily be connected to any future
computers. Seems possible???

Gordon

Well, don't feel too bad - even film photos fade with time.

Silver corrodes and dyes lose color...paper oxidizes...acetate film
liquefies...

Geez - I've been raining on parades today

 

[Yousuf Khan]

What is the best choice for long term storage of computer data files?
I am running Windows 7 - 64, and have a lot of accounting, tax
records, genealogy, pictures, etc., files that I would like to make
back-ups onto some media that I could expect to be able to read on a
new computer, 10 or more years in the future. Is there any storage
media similar to the old style CDs that might be reliable for very
long time spans?

Gordon

I'd say your best bet is external hard drives, formatted to FAT or NTFS
if any of your data files go over 2GB. Having a single large hard drive
store a lot of stuff would make it less likely that you'll have lots of
little optical disks floating around that can get lost.

The a second reason I say that is because neither burned CD's nor DVD's
are good long-term storage, and rewritable versions are even worse. I've
had many issues with reading both CD's and DVD's after a few years. Even
though you've heard that they say CD/DVD's should last hundreds of
years, it's BS, many of them are already deteriorating. At least with a
hard drive there is a lot of error correction built-in.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Ken Blake]

Well, don't feel too bad - even film photos fade with time.

Silver corrodes and dyes lose color...paper oxidizes...acetate film
liquefies...

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Geez - I've been raining on parades today

Actually magnetic digital media is *best*, if you copy it
periodically. The copy is perfect, and even if doesn't last forever it
can last for a while,


And to reply to Antares, why not put the family pictures away on
magnetic media? There's no guarantee that they will be lost, and you
make periodic copies and ask the other generations to do the same,
they can kept forever,

 

[Seth]

This should work very well for short term storage. U use some USB
Flash drives/Thumb drives, but I am very apprehensive about long term
storage. Will my descendants be able to look at the genealogy files
and photos that I have stored on these USB drives? I would like to
find a storage medium that would let me put all these files onto it
and feel sure that this storage medium could be read and the files
opened some time far into the future. Is there any way to do this?

My storage medium is "refreshed" each time I update it. As technology
changes, I can just replace the storage medium while both are in
co-existence (as SATA/USB is phased out, it will still be in wide-use as
whatever is replacing it is just coming in).

 

[Ted]

....
The a second reason I say that is because neither burned CD's nor
DVD's are good long-term storage, and rewritable versions are even
worse. I've had many issues with reading both CD's and DVD's after a
few years.
....

A few years ???

I just had a re-writable DVD fail after just a few months!
It was used for data backup (not the only backup, fortunately), and about 10% of
the files became unreadable.

Two rather older CD's have also partially failed.

CD/DVD is NOT a good idea for long term data backup.

Ted.

 

[Antares 531]

A few years ???

I just had a re-writable DVD fail after just a few months!
It was used for data backup (not the only backup, fortunately), and about 10% of
the files became unreadable.

Two rather older CD's have also partially failed.

CD/DVD is NOT a good idea for long term data backup.

Ted.

I've had a number of the same kind of problems. I even bought some
hard drives and put them in external boxes. These worked very well for
about 5 years, then one of the drives failed, and all the data on it
was lost.

Why doesn't someone "invent" a really reliable, economically
practical, always readable backup system? I would think that something
similar to a USB hub could serve as an interface between any such
storage medium and all future computers. That is, when a new computer
would no longer communicate with this "hub" and the backup media, a
new hub could be purchased that would interface the new computer with
the very old permanent storage media.

I'm guessing the market for such a device would be humongous!

Gordon

 

[Ted]

*From:* Antares 531 <[email protected]>
*Date:* Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:09:13 -0500

I've had a number of the same kind of problems. I even bought some
hard drives and put them in external boxes. These worked very well for
about 5 years, then one of the drives failed, and all the data on it
was lost.

Why doesn't someone "invent" a really reliable, economically
practical, always readable backup system? I would think that something
similar to a USB hub could serve as an interface between any such
storage medium and all future computers. That is, when a new computer
would no longer communicate with this "hub" and the backup media, a
new hub could be purchased that would interface the new computer with
the very old permanent storage media.

I'm guessing the market for such a device would be humongous!

Gordon

Nice idea, but I can't see it ever working. Whatever someone came up with, it would
soon be obsoleted by a "better" system, and the problem would just continue.

I think the technology just move too fast, and is getting faster all the time. It's
bad enough reading old data/hardware formats now, but what about in another 10
years time?

What would you do now with data archived on 8/5/3.5 floppies?

What about tape drives and all the various formats that now cannot be read? (even
assuming you still had the hardware to read them, would the drivers still work with
Windows 7 and later OS ?)

Can you still read MFM\SCSI\IDE HD's?

How long before new super DVD drives lose the ability to read "archaic" CD's

USB seems to be universal at the moment, but will probably die a quick death when
xxxx storage get invented.

If you want your digital photos to last a long time, maybe print them on very good
quality paper and just hope they last as long as photos taken with "old fashioned
cameras" used to.

Ted.

 

[Antares 531]

*From:* Antares 531 <[email protected]>
*Date:* Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:09:13 -0500



Nice idea, but I can't see it ever working. Whatever someone came up with, it would
soon be obsoleted by a "better" system, and the problem would just continue.

I think the technology just move too fast, and is getting faster all the time. It's
bad enough reading old data/hardware formats now, but what about in another 10
years time?

What would you do now with data archived on 8/5/3.5 floppies?

What about tape drives and all the various formats that now cannot be read? (even
assuming you still had the hardware to read them, would the drivers still work with
Windows 7 and later OS ?)

Can you still read MFM\SCSI\IDE HD's?

How long before new super DVD drives lose the ability to read "archaic" CD's

USB seems to be universal at the moment, but will probably die a quick death when
xxxx storage get invented.

If you want your digital photos to last a long time, maybe print them on very good
quality paper and just hope they last as long as photos taken with "old fashioned
cameras" used to.

Ted.

You are right on most of the above, but I still think someone or some
company could design a reliable, long-lasting storage media, then
design an interface similar to a USB hub (not a USB hub, but something
similar) that would handle any needed translation from old file format
to whatever the new computer could use.

The translation hub would have to be replaced each time computers
changed enough to limit the ability to communicate with this
translation hub. But replacing the translation hub should not be
formidably expensive.

If I had a translation hub such as this, that was designed to read
those old 3.5 inch high density floppy discs, and if this hub was
designed to connect to my computer using a Firewire connection, I
could read those old floppy discs by putting them into an external
drive that was designed for them.

Then, when my present computer becomes obsolete and I replace it with
a new one that uses totally different technology, this translation hub
would have to be replaced. The replacement hub would still have to
interact with the old 3.5 inch floppy drive, but it would communicate
with the new computer by some new means.

Gordon

 

[Ted]

......
Then, when my present computer becomes obsolete and I replace it with
a new one that uses totally different technology, this translation hub
would have to be replaced. The replacement hub would still have to
interact with the old 3.5 inch floppy drive, but it would communicate
with the new computer by some new means.

It does sound like a really interesting idea, if only someone with enough money was
prepared to finance it's development.

Dragons Den ??? )

Ted.

 

[Char Jackson]

You are right on most of the above, but I still think someone or some
company could design a reliable, long-lasting storage media, then
design an interface similar to a USB hub (not a USB hub, but something
similar) that would handle any needed translation from old file format
to whatever the new computer could use.

The translation hub would have to be replaced each time computers
changed enough to limit the ability to communicate with this
translation hub. But replacing the translation hub should not be
formidably expensive.

If I had a translation hub such as this, that was designed to read
those old 3.5 inch high density floppy discs, and if this hub was
designed to connect to my computer using a Firewire connection, I
could read those old floppy discs by putting them into an external
drive that was designed for them.

Then, when my present computer becomes obsolete and I replace it with
a new one that uses totally different technology, this translation hub
would have to be replaced. The replacement hub would still have to
interact with the old 3.5 inch floppy drive, but it would communicate
with the new computer by some new means.

Gordon

Why would you want such a thing? Who else would want such a thing? I
can't imagine enough would be sold to break even on the development
costs. I certainly wouldn't buy one.

Looking at storage from a pure capacity perspective, floppies
(8/5.25/3.5 inch) are obsolete because they just don't hold a
meaningful amount of data by current standards. For a short time,
archiving to CDs (650-700MB) seemed like a viable alternative, but
they very quickly became too small, as well. Then there was archiving
to DVDs (4.5-8.5GB), but that too was almost immediately too small to
be convenient. Only the most barren system can be backed up to a DVD
or two.

So that leaves us with hard drives and their spinning platters that
are fairly fragile, but it's still arguably the best we've got. Even
there, capacity is a big issue. The biggest capacity is currently only
2TB (1.8TB usable), so a system with a lot of data needs multiple
drives, and then another set of multiple drives for backups, and
perhaps a third set of drives for offsite backup, and so on. Flash
(SSD) drives are showing promise, but aren't mainstream quite yet.

I think the best you can do is, as others have said, stay on top of
the technology curve by migrating your data every so often to newer
technology so as to avoid stranding it on obsolete media.

 

[Antares 531]

Why would you want such a thing? Who else would want such a thing? I
can't imagine enough would be sold to break even on the development
costs. I certainly wouldn't buy one.

Looking at storage from a pure capacity perspective, floppies
(8/5.25/3.5 inch) are obsolete because they just don't hold a
meaningful amount of data by current standards. For a short time,
archiving to CDs (650-700MB) seemed like a viable alternative, but
they very quickly became too small, as well. Then there was archiving
to DVDs (4.5-8.5GB), but that too was almost immediately too small to
be convenient. Only the most barren system can be backed up to a DVD
or two.

I think you may have missed my point, here. I was not advocating the
use of floppies, or any other currently popular storage means. I was
using the 3.5 inch floppy as an example.

I was suggesting that someone or some company might develop a very
reliable, very long lived storage means (maybe something that operates
at the quark level) that could be used for decades or even centuries
without losing the stored data. This device obviously could not be
accessed straight forward by the later generation computers, but
perhaps something like a (again, for example) USB hub might be
developed as an interface means that could be replaced when the new
computers needed a different setup to read this storage means. We
could buy a new hub every few years, but would not have to buy new
storage means for a long time, and our back-up storage process would
be a lot less of a problem.

 

[Lee Rowell]

You should back up to a 12-inch gold-plated copper disk designed to be
played by a cartridge and needle at 16 2/3 rpm. Should be good for about
40,000 years.