First impression of W8

W

Wolf K

W8 saved my W7 programs and settings (most;ly). The Metro GUI showed the
desktop as a thumbnail of the wallpaper image, easy one click to get
back to it. I d/l Classic Shell 3.6, it provides XP/W7 functionality, a
choice of "classic" and newer start menus, etc. Also restarted directly
into desktop. We'll see if it does so on cold boot. Right now W8 is
re-indexing everything, which makes everything (eg, email and NG
reading) a bit slow.

IOW, so far no real difference. Haven't explored W8 "apps" etc yet.
Metro also showed most of the programs I'd pinned to the task bar.
Wonder why it didn't show them all.

At $39.99 plus tax, it's OK. I may get to like it.
 
W

..winston

Pinned (to the Taskbar) before or after the upgrade to Win8 ?

If after, did you pin them from the 'All Apps' screen ?



--
....winston
msft mvp


"Wolf K" wrote in message
W8 saved my W7 programs and settings (most;ly).
<snip>
Metro also showed most of the programs I'd pinned to the task bar.
Wonder why it didn't show them all.
 
P

philo 

Have you tried running any pre-1995 DOS programs on it?

How well do they run?


Win7 & Win8 64 bit have no 16 bit subsystem so no 16 bit apps will run.

With the 32 bit versions there is a 16 bit subsystem so some of the
older apps will work...I don't know about DOS


There is no sense (that I can see) to upgrade to win8 if one already has
win7
unless one wants the "touch screen" capabilities.
 
W

Wolf K

Win7 & Win8 64 bit have no 16 bit subsystem so no 16 bit apps will run.

With the 32 bit versions there is a 16 bit subsystem so some of the
older apps will work...I don't know about DOS


There is no sense (that I can see) to upgrade to win8 if one already has
win7
unless one wants the "touch screen" capabilities.

It's a test. I have an extra machine almost as old as this one, and need
to decide about which OS to install on it. I could put XP on it, or get
another W7 licence, but W7 currently sells for 3 to 4 times the price of
W8. This box is 6 years old, other machine is a little younger. That W8
runs well on this box is good from my POV.
 
J

John Williamson

Wolf said:
It's a test. I have an extra machine almost as old as this one, and need
to decide about which OS to install on it. I could put XP on it, or get
another W7 licence, but W7 currently sells for 3 to 4 times the price of
W8. This box is 6 years old, other machine is a little younger. That W8
runs well on this box is good from my POV.
On a 6 year old machine, run the Windows 8 compatibility checker. This
machine (2006 Toshiba dual core laptop) can't be used to run Windows 8
Pro, as the NX bit (Needed for the built-in security on 8) either is not
or can't be set on the processor, and the checker says that install will
terminate and roll back if the bit can't be set. I doubt I'd get a
refund of the £24.99 cost of the downloaded upgrade from XP.
 
W

Wolf K

On a 6 year old machine, run the Windows 8 compatibility checker.
That was first order of business before d/l W8.
This
machine (2006 Toshiba dual core laptop) can't be used to run Windows 8
Pro, as the NX bit (Needed for the built-in security on 8) either is not
or can't be set on the processor, and the checker says that install will
terminate and roll back if the bit can't be set. I doubt I'd get a
refund of the £24.99 cost of the downloaded upgrade from XP.
I surmise that "built-in security" refers to secure boot. If so, no
problems here, it doesn't work on this box (MSI P965 Neo mobo w/ Core
Duo E6600 CPU, date 2006) , but install went fine (just took a l-o-o-ng
time.) Which is OK by me. I think of secure boot as malware. ;-) There
were no problems installing.
 
S

Steve Hayes

Win7 & Win8 64 bit have no 16 bit subsystem so no 16 bit apps will run.

With the 32 bit versions there is a 16 bit subsystem so some of the
older apps will work...I don't know about DOS
So can you get a 32-bit version of Windows 8?
There is no sense (that I can see) to upgrade to win8 if one already has
win7
unless one wants the "touch screen" capabilities.
I'm thinking of what might happen if my Win 7 laptop dies or is stolen and I
have to replace it.
 
Z

Zaphod Beeblebrox

On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:39:30 +0200, "Steve Hayes"
So can you get a 32-bit version of Windows 8?
Yes, MS offers both 32- and 64-bit versions of Windows 8. Unless you
need to be able to access more than 4GB RAM (in reality, more like
3.5GB or less), then you'll be fine with 32-bit. If you need the
additional RAM, then 64-bit is the way to go.
 
K

Ken Blake

W8 saved my W7 programs and settings (most;ly). The Metro GUI showed the
desktop as a thumbnail of the wallpaper image, easy one click to get
back to it. I d/l Classic Shell 3.6, it provides XP/W7 functionality, a
choice of "classic" and newer start menus, etc.
Classic Shell is a good choice, and it's free. But I like Start8 (only
$4.99 US) at http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/ even better. You
might want to give it a try.
 
P

Paul

Wolf said:
That was first order of business before d/l W8.


I surmise that "built-in security" refers to secure boot. If so, no
problems here, it doesn't work on this box (MSI P965 Neo mobo w/ Core
Duo E6600 CPU, date 2006) , but install went fine (just took a l-o-o-ng
time.) Which is OK by me. I think of secure boot as malware. ;-) There
were no problems installing.
This is secure boot. It allows the startup process to check for signed
executables, so the startup process basically allows only one thing
to happen. (Maybe that would prevent an MBR virus from taking over.)
If multiple OS certificates are loaded, then you can have
more OSes. On WinRT (Win8 for mobile devices), Secure Boot is
a requirement, and will likely be used to enforce only one OS
running on the box. Whereas, on desktop PCs, there are more options - when
I upgraded to Win8 here, the missing secure boot did not prevent installation
or running of the upgrade. If you're buying a Dell with windows 8 on it,
it's a topic you might want to research, to see how Dell has handled
the issue, whether there are multiple certificates, whether Secure Boot
can be turned off, and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Secure_boot

"Secure boot

The UEFI 2.2 specification adds a protocol known as Secure boot,
which can secure the boot process by preventing the loading of
drivers or OS loaders that are not signed with an acceptable
digital signature. When secure boot is enabled, it is initially
placed in "Setup" mode, which allows a public key known as the
"Platform key" (PK) to be written to the firmware. Once the key
is written, secure boot enters "User" mode, where only drivers
and loaders signed with the platform key can be loaded by the
firmware. Additional "Key Exchange Keys" (KEK) can be added to
a database stored in memory to allow other certificates to be used,
but they must still have a connection to the private portion of the
Platform key. Secure boot can also be placed in "Custom" mode, where
additional public keys can be added to the system that do not match
the private key."

*******

NX/XD is for runtime security, and preventing malware from doing
things to memory that it should not.

Of the three preview releases of Win8, the first two did not have
NX turned on. Only the last one turned it on, and NX was not
prominently listed as a requirement on the Microsoft web pages.
Exactly why it wasn't mentioned, isn't clear to me, as it's
a nuisance for users to discover half way through an install,
that they don't have it.

NX/XD was optionally used, on older OSes, so you could opt for it
or not. Whereas, for better or worse, it's always used on Windows 8.

NX is for AMD, and XD is for Intel. NX is on S754, S939, and all
the later AMxx socket processors. I don't know if it's required for
the processor to support 64 bit instructions (there were a few 32 bit
only processors in the first two mentioned sockets). XD on Intel,
requires at least a late model P4, probably in LGA775 socket. I don't
know if there are any S478 socket P4 processors with XD. The XD requirement
is what only makes Win8 a candidate for two computers here (as the
others don't have NX or XD). (You can look up XD on ark.intel.com and
whether your Intel processor has it or not.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_bit

"An operating system with support for the NX bit may mark certain
areas of memory as non-executable. The processor will then refuse
to execute any code residing in these areas of memory. The general
technique, known as executable space protection, is used to prevent
certain types of malicious software from taking over computers by
inserting their code into another program's data storage area and
running their own code from within this section; this is known as
a buffer overflow attack.
"

So that's a useful form of protection, when the software people can't
seem to remove all the possible stack overflow or buffer overflow
exposures in their code.

To me, Secure Boot seems a bit like overkill, whereas NX is
useful.

When I first started writing this answer, I thought maybe a TPM chip
was needed for Secure Boot, but I couldn't really find any mention of
TPM at all in the case. So it would appear TPM is only used to optionally
support things like BitLocker encryption. It looks like the
certificate scheme, is "boiled into the UEFI BIOS".

Paul
 
S

Steve Hayes

On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 17:39:30 +0200, "Steve Hayes"


Yes, MS offers both 32- and 64-bit versions of Windows 8. Unless you
need to be able to access more than 4GB RAM (in reality, more like
3.5GB or less), then you'll be fine with 32-bit. If you need the
additional RAM, then 64-bit is the way to go.
Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
 
W

Wolf K

On 1/7/2013 7:37 PM, Paul wrote:
[...]
The [Secure Boot] UEFI 2.2 specification adds a protocol known as Secure boot,
which can secure the boot process by preventing the loading of
drivers or OS loaders that are not signed with an acceptable
digital signature.
[...]

There's the hook to catch the unwary. That's why I think secure boot is
malware. What this means is that any OS mfr can ensure that no other OS
can be installed. IOW, One OS Shall Rule Them All.

If secure boot were another layer of security (eg, requiring thumbprint,
or password, or RF wave card, or something similar), I wouldn't object.
 
P

Paul

Steve said:
Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
If you buy high end Adobe software, some of that is offered in 64 bit
versions only (the latest versions), and that would be a second reason
for installing the 64 bit version.

So if you had 3GB of RAM installed, and wanted to run one of the
Adobe products that is only available in 64 bit, then you'd need
the 64 bit OS.

Not too many software companies have shot themselves in the foot
yet, by going "pure 64 bit". But Adobe is trying.

Paul
 
K

Ken Blake

If you buy high end Adobe software, some of that is offered in 64 bit
versions only (the latest versions), and that would be a second reason
for installing the 64 bit version.

It's probably not too far down the road when most of the new software
that's released will be available only in 64-bit versions. And drivers
for newer hardware may only also only exist in 64-bit versions.

So that's a third reason for installing the 64-bit version: it gets
you better prepared for the future.
 
R

Rene Lamontagne

If you buy high end Adobe software, some of that is offered in 64 bit
versions only (the latest versions), and that would be a second reason
for installing the 64 bit version.

So if you had 3GB of RAM installed, and wanted to run one of the
Adobe products that is only available in 64 bit, then you'd need
the 64 bit OS.

Not too many software companies have shot themselves in the foot
yet, by going "pure 64 bit". But Adobe is trying.

Paul

So when 128 bit???

Rene
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

So when 128 bit???

Rene
As soon as possible.

....I was in the mood to write a reply that looked meaningful but wasn't,
as an attempt at humor.

To be (briefly) serious, some video cards now have 128-bit memory busses
internally. Or some kind of 128-bit bus, I don't quite remember.
 
P

Paul

Rene said:
So when 128 bit???

Rene
It's worthwhile for a "heavy math" program to switch to 64 bit.

But if I'm coding a little utility for myself and I say

"for i=1 to 10 do ..."

the counter that counts from 1 to 10 gains no benefit from
being held in a 64 bit number instead of a 32 bit number.
Lots of fairly simple programs that use nothing more than
integer math, might not get a benefit from the new 64 bit
world.

On the other hand, I was playing around with some extended
precision math. I compiled a program to find Mersenne Primes,
using a 32 bit and a 64 bit version of the extended precision
math library. In that case, the 64 bit version ran 70%
faster than the 32 bit version. Which is a worthwhile upgrade.
And that is partially what Adobe is after. Adobe might also
want longer numbers, just to improve the accuracy of any
floating point they're doing.

For more pedestrian applications like Microsoft Word, I
don't really see what a 64 bit world buys that software.
It's the multimedia software (Photoshop filters, movie
editors), that might see some gains.

*******

As for the reference to "128 bit", we may get there
some day, but don't forget that the carry propagate
chain in the ALU, gets slower, the bigger the number
you make it hump around. The "clock rate" of your
processor can drop, if you make the numbers too wide.
So be careful what you wish for. 64 bit is only
fun if you're "getting it for free". If you have
to pay for 128 bit somehow (in clock speed), you
may be sorry you asked.

Also of note, while we use "64 bit" to describe
a processor, the processor is a "jumble of plumbing"
inside. For example, a 32 bit processor has FP64.
There might even be some 128 bit paths inside a
64 bit processor, for things like SSE (SIMD). So
when we say 32 bit or 64 bit processor, it might
have an impact on address space, or operand size,
but there might still be some data paths or
registers inside the processor, which are larger
than the stated number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simd

"Small-scale (64 or 128 bits) SIMD has become
popular on general-purpose CPUs in the early 1990s

Intel's AVX SIMD instructions now process
256 bits of data at once.
"

"Programming with particular SIMD instruction sets can
involve numerous low-level challenges.

SSE (Streaming SIMD Extension) has restrictions on
data alignment; programmers familiar with the x86
architecture may not expect this.

Gathering data into SIMD registers and scattering
it to the correct destination locations is tricky
and can be inefficient.
"

So if the width of the processor is X, SIMD instructions
could be 2X or 4X wide in terms of data path. At some point,
it would get silly to make them wider, for fear the data
would be wider than a cache line. The cache line width is
also an architectural issue. The wider you make a cache line,
the more cycles it takes on the memory bus to move it around.
(Yes, you pay for that.)

Suffice to say, its complicated, and the more I try to explain
it, the more bits of it I'll get wrong :)

HTH,
Paul
 
R

Rene Lamontagne

It's worthwhile for a "heavy math" program to switch to 64 bit.

But if I'm coding a little utility for myself and I say

"for i=1 to 10 do ..."

the counter that counts from 1 to 10 gains no benefit from
being held in a 64 bit number instead of a 32 bit number.
Lots of fairly simple programs that use nothing more than
integer math, might not get a benefit from the new 64 bit
world.

On the other hand, I was playing around with some extended
precision math. I compiled a program to find Mersenne Primes,
using a 32 bit and a 64 bit version of the extended precision
math library. In that case, the 64 bit version ran 70%
faster than the 32 bit version. Which is a worthwhile upgrade.
And that is partially what Adobe is after. Adobe might also
want longer numbers, just to improve the accuracy of any
floating point they're doing.

For more pedestrian applications like Microsoft Word, I
don't really see what a 64 bit world buys that software.
It's the multimedia software (Photoshop filters, movie
editors), that might see some gains.

*******

As for the reference to "128 bit", we may get there
some day, but don't forget that the carry propagate
chain in the ALU, gets slower, the bigger the number
you make it hump around. The "clock rate" of your
processor can drop, if you make the numbers too wide.
So be careful what you wish for. 64 bit is only
fun if you're "getting it for free". If you have
to pay for 128 bit somehow (in clock speed), you
may be sorry you asked.

Also of note, while we use "64 bit" to describe
a processor, the processor is a "jumble of plumbing"
inside. For example, a 32 bit processor has FP64.
There might even be some 128 bit paths inside a
64 bit processor, for things like SSE (SIMD). So
when we say 32 bit or 64 bit processor, it might
have an impact on address space, or operand size,
but there might still be some data paths or
registers inside the processor, which are larger
than the stated number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simd

"Small-scale (64 or 128 bits) SIMD has become
popular on general-purpose CPUs in the early 1990s

Intel's AVX SIMD instructions now process
256 bits of data at once.
"

"Programming with particular SIMD instruction sets can
involve numerous low-level challenges.

SSE (Streaming SIMD Extension) has restrictions on
data alignment; programmers familiar with the x86
architecture may not expect this.

Gathering data into SIMD registers and scattering
it to the correct destination locations is tricky
and can be inefficient.
"

So if the width of the processor is X, SIMD instructions
could be 2X or 4X wide in terms of data path. At some point,
it would get silly to make them wider, for fear the data
would be wider than a cache line. The cache line width is
also an architectural issue. The wider you make a cache line,
the more cycles it takes on the memory bus to move it around.
(Yes, you pay for that.)

Suffice to say, its complicated, and the more I try to explain
it, the more bits of it I'll get wrong :)

HTH,
Paul

Certainly I will never need that much processing power in a CPU As all
the mundane stuff I do would be OK on 32 bits as I no longer use
Photoshop anymore and mostly play some FPS games mostly Half-Life 1 and
2 and lots of mods.
My machine is an i7-950 64 bit CPU and an Asus 5850 video card and in
Half-Life 1 i sometimes get frame rates of 300 to 350, so I sure won't
need anything more than what i have now.

Rene
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Similar Threads

Win 8, first impressions. 45
SOLVED MS Impression 4 problem 4
First Impressions of Windows 7 8

Top