Backup and Restore - behind the scenes question

[Ken Springer]

I set up an external hard drive dedicated to just backup and restore
functions. Just to experiment with to understand how the program works.
Absolutely no user data to worry about, this is a learning exercise to
some extent.

I'm cleaning up a Windows 7 computer to be donated. Reinstalling to
"out of the box" state using DVD's from the manufacturer. And I want to
include a System Image disk with the computer.

As I was experimenting with creating system images, restoring from them,
etc. when I had some system images I no longer needed/wanted, I simply
opened a window for the backup drive, and deleted the unwanted files. I
held the Shift key while selecting delete to bypass the recycle bin.

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

Doing a complete format of the drive resolved the program.

I'm wondering what triggered the insufficient space message. Does the
backup and restore program write data to that hard drive that is not
affected by a normal delete process when you delete items when you are
in a folder window?

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[philo]

I set up an external hard drive dedicated to just backup and restore
functions. Just to experiment with to understand how the program works.
Absolutely no user data to worry about, this is a learning exercise to
some extent.

I'm cleaning up a Windows 7 computer to be donated. Reinstalling to
"out of the box" state using DVD's from the manufacturer. And I want to
include a System Image disk with the computer.

As I was experimenting with creating system images, restoring from them,
etc. when I had some system images I no longer needed/wanted, I simply
opened a window for the backup drive, and deleted the unwanted files. I
held the Shift key while selecting delete to bypass the recycle bin.

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

Doing a complete format of the drive resolved the program.

I'm wondering what triggered the insufficient space message. Does the
backup and restore program write data to that hard drive that is not
affected by a normal delete process when you delete items when you are
in a folder window?

I don't know...maybe try enabling viewing of hidden and system files to
see what's left on the drive

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I set up an external hard drive dedicated to just backup and restore
functions. Just to experiment with to understand how the program works.
Absolutely no user data to worry about, this is a learning exercise to
some extent.

I'm cleaning up a Windows 7 computer to be donated. Reinstalling to
"out of the box" state using DVD's from the manufacturer. And I want to
include a System Image disk with the computer.

As I was experimenting with creating system images, restoring from them,
etc. when I had some system images I no longer needed/wanted, I simply
opened a window for the backup drive, and deleted the unwanted files. I
held the Shift key while selecting delete to bypass the recycle bin.

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

Doing a complete format of the drive resolved the program.

I'm wondering what triggered the insufficient space message. Does the
backup and restore program write data to that hard drive that is not
affected by a normal delete process when you delete items when you are
in a folder window?

Since you deleted the backup files outside of the backup program,
perhaps the backup program thought they were still there.

BTW, are you using a disk-erase program to clear your data out of the
unused clusters that used to be part of (possibly private) files?

 

[Ken Blake]

I set up an external hard drive dedicated to just backup and restore
functions. Just to experiment with to understand how the program works.
Absolutely no user data to worry about, this is a learning exercise to
some extent.

I'm cleaning up a Windows 7 computer to be donated. Reinstalling to
"out of the box" state using DVD's from the manufacturer. And I want to
include a System Image disk with the computer.

As I was experimenting with creating system images, restoring from them,
etc. when I had some system images I no longer needed/wanted, I simply
opened a window for the backup drive, and deleted the unwanted files. I
held the Shift key while selecting delete to bypass the recycle bin.

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

Doing a complete format of the drive resolved the program.

Just a guess: the drive was FAT32 and you were trying to write a file
larger than 4GB to it. That results in the very poor misleading
message you got.

When you reformatted the drive, you made it NTFS, so the problem was
gone.

 

[...winston]

Deleting from the Win7 B/R (now called Windows 7 File Recovery in Win8) is the preferred.

Though another possibility exists if your pc has a 100MB System Reserved partition
- that partition is used when you create a system image (if not large enough to hold the files, you may get the message implying
your destination drive is not large enough (since B/R may not be able to identify the drive-letterless System Reserved hidden
partition.

Other solutions that may work, temporarily resetting the backup destination to another drive, the back schedule to manual (or run
now and abort) then reset the destination to the original drive allowing it to refresh.

--
....winston
msft mvp mail


"Ken Springer" wrote in message
I set up an external hard drive dedicated to just backup and restore
functions. Just to experiment with to understand how the program works.
Absolutely no user data to worry about, this is a learning exercise to
some extent.

I'm cleaning up a Windows 7 computer to be donated. Reinstalling to
"out of the box" state using DVD's from the manufacturer. And I want to
include a System Image disk with the computer.

As I was experimenting with creating system images, restoring from them,
etc. when I had some system images I no longer needed/wanted, I simply
opened a window for the backup drive, and deleted the unwanted files. I
held the Shift key while selecting delete to bypass the recycle bin.

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

Doing a complete format of the drive resolved the program.

I'm wondering what triggered the insufficient space message. Does the
backup and restore program write data to that hard drive that is not
affected by a normal delete process when you delete items when you are
in a folder window?

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:35:20 -0600, Ken Springer

[snip]

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

I have fumble-fingered the odd delete. Maybe you did so?

It would be easy to do and miss that one had done so. Do you
read the message in full every time? (I *usually* do.)

That stated, the other posters' explanations should be looked at
first.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Ken Springer]

Just a guess: the drive was FAT32 and you were trying to write a file
larger than 4GB to it. That results in the very poor misleading
message you got.

When you reformatted the drive, you made it NTFS, so the problem was
gone.

The drive is new, about 4 mo. old, and has always been NTFS.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Ken Springer]

Since you deleted the backup files outside of the backup program,
perhaps the backup program thought they were still there.

That's a possibility that hadn't occurred to me. Which means B&R is
keeping a record and using that instead of actually looking for what was
on the hard drive. And makes more sense than writing something
somewhere it shouldn't be. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if MS did
something like that.

BTW, are you using a disk-erase program to clear your data out of the
unused clusters that used to be part of (possibly private) files?

No, just used the normal Win7 method. Right click the files, hold the
Shift key, click on Delete.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Philip Herlihy]

....
To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

Doing a complete format of the drive resolved the program.

I'm wondering what triggered the insufficient space message. Does the
backup and restore program write data to that hard drive that is not
affected by a normal delete process when you delete items when you are
in a folder window?

Google for Treesize Free - great little utility which shows where the
space is being taken up.

(Next time, I guess...)

 

[Ken Springer]

Deleting from the Win7 B/R (now called Windows 7 File Recovery in Win8) is the preferred.

Though another possibility exists if your pc has a 100MB System Reserved partition
- that partition is used when you create a system image (if not large enough to hold the files, you may get the message implying
your destination drive is not large enough (since B/R may not be able to identify the drive-letterless System Reserved hidden
partition.

Other solutions that may work, temporarily resetting the backup destination to another drive, the back schedule to manual (or run
now and abort) then reset the destination to the original drive allowing it to refresh.

Are you speaking about the GUID partition? I've read a few articles
about it, but still don't have a handle of what it's for.

Temp solutions/workarounds doesn't answer the question of why it's
happening.

Gosh, Winston, I appreciate the information and suggestions, but the
formatting of your post looks like it was done by a little school kid.
If my posts looked like that, I'd hang my head in shame and embarrassment.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Ken Blake]

On 10/30/12 7:56 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

The drive is new, about 4 mo. old, and has always been NTFS.

OK, then my guess was wrong.

 

[Ken Springer]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:35:20 -0600, Ken Springer

[snip]

To my surprise, eventually when I went to create another system image,
up popped a message saying there was insufficient space on the backup
drive. But, I'd deleted the images using Shift-Delete, rather than
through the Manage Space option in Backup and Restore.

I have fumble-fingered the odd delete. Maybe you did so?

It would be easy to do and miss that one had done so. Do you
read the message in full every time? (I *usually* do.)

That stated, the other posters' explanations should be looked at
first.

[snip]

No fumble fingers here... this time! LOL I deleted the backups just
because I wanted to.

This computer is a fresh reinstall of Win7, no user data at all.

I wish now, and obviously too late, I had written down the message or
taken a screen shot and printed it.

After a night's sleep, I do remember the message saying something about
shadow copies.

Right now, I'm burning a system image to DVD's, then I'll go back to
hard drive and repeat my steps to see if I can get the message to appear.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Ken Springer]

Google for Treesize Free - great little utility which shows where the
space is being taken up.

(Next time, I guess...)

Got it. After the system image burn to DVD's I mentioned to Gene W.,
I'll install it and go from there, especially after I repeat the steps
that gave me the message.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Ken Springer]

OK, then my guess was wrong.

If I just had a dollar for every guess I made that was wrong..... LOL


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Ken Blake]

If I just had a dollar for every guess I made that was wrong..... LOL

I'm almost certainly older than you (I'll be 75 in two weeks), so I'd
have more dollars than you. <g>

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:47:43 -0600, Ken Springer
[snip]

If I just had a dollar for every guess I made that was wrong..... LOL

I'm almost certainly older than you (I'll be 75 in two weeks), so I'd
have more dollars than you. <g>

Or, at least, get another dollar.

Keep on curmudgeoning. I turn 52 in less than a week.

Sicnerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Ken Springer]

I'm almost certainly older than you (I'll be 75 in two weeks), so I'd
have more dollars than you. <g>

65 in January, but I could have been making 3 mistakes to your 1. LOL!


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 16.0.1
Thunderbird 16.0.1
LibreOffice 3.5.6.2

 

[Ken Blake]

On 10/31/12 12:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

65 in January, but I could have been making 3 mistakes to your 1. LOL!

My unspoken point was that I made at least as many bad guesses as you
did.

The only good thing I can about it is that at least I said it was just
a guess.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

That's a possibility that hadn't occurred to me. Which means B&R is
keeping a record and using that instead of actually looking for what was
on the hard drive. And makes more sense than writing something
somewhere it shouldn't be. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if MS did
something like that.

Of course, if it's true, it's broken by design.

And it might be both of those things :-(

No, just used the normal Win7 method. Right click the files, hold the
Shift key, click on Delete.

You're not as paranoid as I am

I guess it's weird to think that someone would analyze old, now
unallocated, sectors on my disk looking for data that was not really
erased, but in my defense I cite Bloch Lemma Number 1:

"It's crazy not to be paranoid".

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

My unspoken point was that I made at least as many bad guesses as you
did.

The only good thing I can about it is that at least I said it was just
a guess.

It's still worth a dollar ;-)